Hello, I started this in the "Drop It" forum but I was told to start another one so here goes:

Dog: Toby, age 15 months. Cockapoo, 20 lbs, had him for 5 mths.
prev owners gave him up to the breeder. Now I know why.

Problem: Snatch-and-run artist. The WORLD is his chewtoy. If he
can get it into his jaws and is free, he's off. He
wants you to chase (I don't; have to offer a trip out
side or something to get him back on leash but some-
times even that doesn't work...) Strong prey drive and
gets spun up very easily into a psychotic frenzy
where he'll run in circles at high speed, for ex.

Our current routine:

I get up, take him outside (business) , let him hang out with me outside the crate for a few hours, (he stays with me and daughter while we homeschool), put him in the crate so I can shower, get him back out for a little while, take him for a walk, play a few mins with him ,etc and it's time for dinner. Back in the crate he goes and I fix dinner and feed him in his crate after we eat. Take him out of the crate for a couple of hours, make another run outside, let him hang out with us as a family, and back in the crate for the night. That's the routine.


What I've tried:

He is crate trained already. Got the pack leader dvd but it didn't help. (Worked with him one-on-one as sole provider and trainer for 2 mths, etc.) He did get attached to me, but still
can't be trusted off leash and still grabs things he shouldn't
have while on leash. (He waits until you aren't looking...) I bought a prong collar. It helped but he still goes after stuff when the jerk wears off. I've picked him off the floor by the scuff of the neck--I say drop, he'll drop it, I'll say leave it and after about 50 times he gives up and walks away until next time.

I am using a prong collar properly and it wears off after a while. If I jerk him any harder he'll end up in a doggie hospital. I'm thinking of an e-collar but they're so expensive...
Again, the prong is helping but I'm concerned that once off a leash (years away?) he'll just revert back to his old self again.

I play ball with him inside and outside weather permitting. He gets bored quickly, tho and outside just runs and runs and eats everything in the yard. (He's on a leash of course. You get tired of saying "no" , "drop it" "leave it" and go back inside...)

His eyes are constantly roving about, looking for something to grab. He's a restless guy.

I've noticed he's slowing down a little, but at this rate it'll take us about 5 years to get him off a leash.

I know what I'm going to get: No respect & trust for me. But I don't know what else I can possibly do to get trust & respect--I've followed the instructions here. Should I abandon him to the crate longer and starve him to all activities and toys for about a year? I'm afraid he'll end up neurotic if I do that.


I've had 3 other dogs and never had/saw one this obsessed with having something in his jaws before. Help.
Kim

Kim,
The first thing I noted missing is any ob exercises.
No yank and crank stuff now (or ever) just show her how to get her high value toys and treats. Make her earn them. Come, sit, down, heel, fetch, come, etc. If she runs around you with one toy.......Oh lookie here, I have this other toy here, come, good girl, as soon as she drops the other toy, throw, fetch, etc. Even if she doesn't know what the words mean for the moment make sure you say them, she'll learn the associations as you go along. But it's important you start incorporating some ob. into your exercise periods. And always, always make the come command a fun time. If she has any bad associations with the word come now, change the the command to here and start over with that word, but alawys make the recall a fun thing to do. If it's not play time use food, but it must be rewarding whatever you use.
Do some study on marker training.


If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

I would tether this dog to you when he is out, no interaction from family members (if they have to do the potty break, then that is all, they should not even interact no matter how hard he tries).

Basically the dog does nothing on his own.
Use a clicker or other marker training with a high value treat to mold the behaviors you want. Ignore the behaviors you do not want.

He is old enough to where you can take him for long walks, brisk paced in order to help wear him out, this combined with several short obedience/focus sessions should get you to where you can see a change in his attitude and behaviors. If you have a treadmill, I would utilize that.

Keep up the crate work when you cannot have him tethered to you.

 Quote: kim wibbing

I get up, take him outside (business) , let him hang out with me outside the crate for a few hours, (he stays with me and daughter while we homeschool), put him in the crate so I can shower, get him back out for a little while, take him for a walk, play a few mins with him ,etc and it's time for dinner. Back in the crate he goes and I fix dinner and feed him in his crate after we eat. Take him out of the crate for a couple of hours, make another run outside, let him hang out with us as a family, and back in the crate for the night. That's the routine.

Hi Kim,

I'm not experienced enough to address all the issues but the above paragraph caught my attention.

As I read this, he's getting 2 walks/day, a few minutes of play, and several hours a day to hang out with the family...or he's in his crate. I know with my dog, hanging out in the house is no substitute for time spent working with me.

I'd add in more several more sessions of playtime/OB...one-on-one with him. These do not need to be long...10-15 minutes, several times/day...might help take the edge off his energy and wear him out physically and mentally.

There's a "Tricks" thread on the board right now. Even spending a few minutes several times a day teaching fun stuff like this is a mental workout that will tire him out. A tired dog is a happy dog.

I agree with all the above suggestioning. Adding Obedience and some fun possitive sessions and tethering. More exercise, mental stimulation, and ZERO time "loose" he needs to be on a lead at all times. Not one second off of a leash and out of your control (have the leash in your hands, not dragging)

I know the exact game you are describing. He is playing with you, it really is a game for him, he wants to play and this is the way he has learned gets him the most attention and energy from you. This is very likely something he learned and just had reinforced over and over again with his previous owners. This is puppy behavior.

What sort of chew toys does he have? Do you have a kong for him, any treat balls or chewy things?

He sounds bored Obedience, exercise, some stimulating toys should really really help.

Like others, I noticed the lack of daily training sessions immediately.

http://www.leerburg.com/markers.htm

I'd start short upbeat motivational training sessions, a few per day rather than one long one, always beginning and ending on an up note with something that he knows how to do and will be marked and rewarded for.

Even 5 minutes each time will help a lot, both in his perception of you as pack leader and in his desire to obey commands from you.

He needs more fast-paced exercise, but also more brain-exercise.

And please don't give any command 50 times. You will turn into background noise.

I'd grab a handful of high-value rewards and I'd start tiny basic ob sessions tomorrow. Tonight! The marker article is short and simple, and you can start immediately. It will be fun.

Sorry I didn't add my training routines in with the rest. I've tried food but it only works for a few minutes and then he gets bored and goes after the food bag. He figures he can bypass the tricks part if he can get to the bag.

He knows sit, stay, down, "bang" (point finger and he drops over), come, etc. He's very smart and learns a new trick in about 15 mins., esp with a treat. Without any treats he will do obedience on a leash without a prob. It's only off leash that he decides he doesn't have to do anything.

We do training prob every other day/sev times a week. I do it whenever I think of it/can. I'm kinda busy.

He is given real cow bones. Everything else he chews up quickly, even nylabones. He eats nylabones. He has a kong that he'll look at and flip around for a while if it has something he's interested in in it, otherwise he ignores it. The vet hates snacks for dogs and says she'd clean out her lobby if people would quit giving their dogs treats. I tried carrots since my sister's schnauzers like them, but he doesn't really care for carrots. I'm still looking for cheap alternatives to expensive dog treats. Any suggestions?

Yes, he gets training. Very smart dog. Have tried food/marker stuff but it doesn't last--he knows where the bag is.


THanks,
Kim

The treats HAVE to have high value to the dog. Even if it is raw t-bone, which I have used.

I would make a mix of treats so that the dog does not know what he will get next, put a few of his favorites into the mix as well. This way the dog will want to behave because he will be trying to get the jackpot out of you.

High energy dogs respond to clickers very well.
But it sounds like you've gone awry someplace with your marker work, and training regimen.
If it were me I'd review my training methods and try to determine here I've gone amiss.
So far it seems you've decided that the dog is smarter than you.

Keep at it, it's only finding the right key on one ring of keys.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: kim wibbing

... The vet hates snacks for dogs and says she'd clean out her lobby if people would quit giving their dogs treats. I tried carrots since my sister's schnauzers like them, but he doesn't really care for carrots. I'm still looking for cheap alternatives to expensive dog treats. Any suggestions?

Bits of real meat. Even if you want it cooked, it takes very little time or money to cook up a half chicken breast and cut it small.

BTW, "smart dog" does not = untrainable dog. It's the opposite, in fact.