I would like feedback from experienced raw feeders on this, please. 19mo Shih Tzu (Bear)with semi-raw diet of 1/3 cup Embark, 1 small scoop of Dinovite and a raw chicken wing/drum twice a day. No vaccinations since we got him 13 mo ago. Heartguard plus monthly. No fleas and no known allergies. He frequently regurgitates, especially if he eats the Embark within 15 minutes of the raw chicken.
Tonight he began vomiting almost 4 hours after eating. After all his food was expelled, he was vomiting blood. Rushed to the emergency vet who ran blood test that shows higher than normal readings for the kidney, pancreas and liver. Vet promptly stated that we should no longer feed anything raw because it has caused the lining of the stomach to become eroded, thus the blood and vomiting. Bear is being kept overnight with IV fluids and antivomiting meds.
Obviously, I am second-guessing my decision to feed the raw chicken. What should I do about his diet?

Sorry you're having troubles. Sounds scary as hell.

Its very understandable to be doubting your decision to feed raw. Right now that isn't the main concern. Worry about that later.

Do get a 2nd opinion ASAP. People can be very ignorant about a raw diet and blame any little thing that happens to a dog on it. I would ask your real vet to give you a totally unbiased look at your dog. They need to look at the dog and not just assume that a raw diet caused this.

I'm not there to say this is, or isn't diet related. Could be. Might not be.

Your dog really deserves a fair assessment, though.

Good luck tonight. I'm truly sorry you're having problems. Keep us updated.

Don't forget that kibble fed dogs get sick, too. With this exact same problem. If your dog ate the food sold at the vet's office, this probably wouldn't be labeled as a food issue. This isn't something you did, its just something that happened.

Get this pup better and then worry about diet. I'm not the most experienced here, but I have been in a very similar situation to your's. Afterhours trips to the vet are the worst.

Thanks for the quick replies. We will be calling the emergency vet at 11am for Bear's status. To clarify his diet regimen and answer some questions: 1. Yes, Twice a day, Bear eats 1 small raw chicken wing or drumstick with the bone (thawed from a 10lb bag of Tyson Raw First & Second Seconds Ice Glazed with 10% Chicken Broth)followed by 1/3 cup rehydrated Honest Kitchen Embark mixed with a small amount of Dinovite. 2. Sometimes, he chews the chicken once or twice then swallows it whole. Most of the time I hear him chewing and breaking the bones. 3. He frequently regurgitates (not vomit) if he eats the Embark within 15-30min of the chicken. Most of the time, he immediately re-eats the regurgitated food. 4. The vomiting 7 months ago seemed to be caused by the antibiotic. Once we replenished his gut flora with yogurt, he recovered. If I remember correctly, we were NOT feeding the raw chicken at that time. 5. He weighs 20lbs, has no fleas, no allergies, gets Heartguard Plus 1xmonth and has had NO vaccinations since his very first vet visit (back when we were ignorant of vaccinosis and raw diets).

Question for Mike Armstrong: Why, specifically, is it not good to feed the raw chicken so close to eating the Embark and why is twice a day worse? What specific diet would you recommend, assuming that we keep him on the Embark as the main food?

We chose the Embark because it was a good compromise between getting off the straight store-bought, dry kibble and going 100% raw.

The emergency vet's assistant was completely clueless about a "raw diet" and was shocked that we fed him chicken wings. It certainly appears that this vet is either ignorant himself or anti-raw diet. I am concerned that the emergency vet is using the raw diet as the culprit without doing more checking. This concern turns to anger when I think about how expensive this little $500 visit is going to be. Our regular vet is raw diet friendly and feeds her own dogs the Honest Kitchen food.

According to Honest Kitchen, Embark can be fed as a stand-alone diet OR with RMB add-ins. It's not a kibble.

Was the diagnosis pancreatitis? If so, and as already stated, any dog, on kibble or raw, can come down with this....even on a veterinary diet. It's a fairly common problem. The blood work already done will say if that's what this is.

I'm glad you have an ally in your regular vet. E vets are notorious for their lack of people skills (at least the ones I've met) and really, his only job right now is to get your dog diagnosed and treated until you can get back to your own vet. Nutrition guidance is your regular vet's job. :wink:

As a suggestion for when everything calms down: Have you tried giving chicken backs or necks? They are softer and are usually recommended as a good choice when first switching to raw.

Wings are bony and drumsticks are harder, and possibly more difficult for your dog to digest. Just a thought...

First the THK with raw:

"THK" is kind of a catchprase on the board, and I strsongly suspect that Mike assumed that Embark was a kibble. And I'm with him on mixing kibble and RMBs in the same meal.

THK, of course, is not kibble and is made for raw (or cooked) add-ins.

I, like Mike, also need to know what happened when he was vomiting months ago.

And the diagnosis you get at 11:00. (Of course, pancreatitis and "lining of stomach eroded" are not the same thing.)

Without those two pieces of info, all we can offer are the truisms that too many vets say "Raw? Oh, then that's what's wrong."

I am waiting anxiously. I know how you feel; it's so frightening to be helpless while the dog is in the hospital.

7 months ago, Bear got a thorn stuck in his ear which caused infection. Shortly after the antbiotics were given, he began the vomiting. My memory of that time is sort of fuzzy because I am not certain that it was vomiting as opposed to regurgitation. Of course, 7 months ago I didn't really know the difference either... After a few weeks of adding yogurt to his food, it definitely got much better.
Bear has certainly had a regurgitation issue since that time. That is why we changed the timing of his feedings such that we would wait at least 30 minutes, sometimes an hour, after the raw chicken to feed the Embark. The regurgitation events declined dramatically.

We called the emergency vet and were told that he is doing great and barking like crazy. They plan to release him this afternoon.
I will be asking more detailed questions when I pick him up.

Thank you all for your graciousness and valuable input. I am anxious to read more about specific recommendations for his diet.

Yeah, my mistake re: the Embark.

I posted just before going to bed and my brain was too focused on the "kibble" part. Ditto Sarah and Connie, that THK is not the same as kibble and is o.k. with raw food. I actually do feed a little kibble (about 1/3c. Innova EVO or Orijen) for a couple reasons, but it's the morning meal and then dinner will be the raw, veggies, etc. My personal choice would be to try them in separate meals just to see if it made a difference. It shouldn't, but . . . ?

Again, more diet discussion details can wait 'til you get him home, but I would second the suggestion to try something with softer bones like backs and necks over drumsticks and wings. And I've switched to grinding whole chickens - except for the backs, necks, wings - for my 65# GSD. A cheaper source in the long run and although my dog has never had a problem with regurgitating or passing bones, it still makes me feel a little better.

Glad to hear you got a good report.

Mike

 Quote: dean gemberling

I am anxious to read more about specific recommendations for his diet.

Please post back with details of their diagnosis.

I'm with Mike on replacing wings as a daily food, anyway.

But the diagnosis is crucial. And if it's vague, then I would absolutely be making an appointment with the regular vet (who has no THK/raw "issues").

Vomiting blood requires a diagnosis.

Bear just came home. I spoke with the vet on duty (not the same one who admitted Bear) and he said the following: "I am not going to talk to you about his diet. (I took that to mean that he knew he would not be able to change our faith in raw diets) We really do not know for certain what caused the vomiting. Usually with these small breeds it can be stress related. The blood was probably due to ruptured capillaries since he vomited at least 4 times before the blood started to show. The Cerenia is antivomiting medicine and the Amoxicillin is an antiobiotic. The amoxicillin is prescribed simply as a prophylactic (in other words..as a precaution but not for a specific symptom)"

They treated him with IV fluids, antivomiting shots and one antibiotic shot. They prescribed Cerenia 24mg tablets 1 per day for 4 days and Amoxicillin 250mg tablets 2 per day for 6 days.

We plan to carry him to our regular vet on Monday. In the meantime, we will eliminate the raw chicken and stick with only the Embark. I am not crazy about giving him the antibiotic because of the problems it caused 7 months ago. We will feed him the plain yogurt to help offset the negative effects.

Should we give him the prescribed antibiotic or not??