I actually have several questions, but I'm breaking them up to fit in approriate categories, lol!

Ok, new family member arrived yesterday, a 10 mth old pug. I have ordered the pack and family pet dvd, as well as obedience, but they're several weeks away from delivery. (The joys of living in Canada, lol!)

Winston has caught on incredibly fast to the treat idea. I'm making him sit on both sides of the door...its nowhere near 'learned' yet...unless he sees me put my hand in my pocket. Then his butt hits floor in lightening speed He's barely been here 24 hrs, so I'm wondering if its too early to not reward every time? I can't vary the hand I give him treats from...I was injured at work and my right hand/arm have some nerve issues (temporary,we're hoping!)...I can't grasp a treat in that hand, too small.

He didn't sit until you indicated that there was a treat. That's bribing more than rewarding: "unless he sees my hand in my pocket" ....


I have to go to training, but here's a good overview of marker training:

http://www.leerburg.com/markers.htm

Have fun!

Sorry, I didn't explain that better. He WILL sit without my hand in my pocket, it just takes a whole lot longer, lol! I'm not doing corrections at all, since I don't think he's really learned the command. I just notice that his response time is flash quick if my hand goes to my pocket, lol!

This is going to sound super dumb, but how do you know when they DO know the command, but are just being a doofus?

 Quote:

This is going to sound super dumb, but how do you know when they DO know the command, but are just being a doofus?

Not dumb at all.

If the dog can do it in a bunch of different places, conditions,at a distance, with your back turned and so on..AND with no hand or body signal...they probably know the word/command.

They are not the greatest generalizers. Just because know what to do when they are standing in front of you and you say sit...that may not carry over to sitting from laying down for example.


Dogs are REALLY good at learning from body language. Your dog may think that putting a hand in your pocket IS the hand/body signal for sit at this point! He may not be so sure what to do when you say the word without the hand in your pocket.... (also the bribe thing)

Using markers and separating the marker from the reward (or reaching for it) by a second is important. I am just adjusting my marker training to adjust for MY errors in this area!

I would also add, Melissa, that you're right about corrections. This dog is brand new to you and your house, and also not even close to being taught ob commands and then distraction-proofed. So you're right: corrections for non-compliance aren't even on the horizon yet.

JMO.

See, something I've learned here at Leerburg, lol! Not to do any corrections until the dog knows 100% what I'm asking. The reason I'm trying to teach him sit right now is the coming in and out of the house issue. Although I did read Ed'd advice about shutting the door, it doesn't work for me, because I'm reaching across my body for the door, with the hand the leash is already in..by which time Winston is already on the step, or run behind me as the door starts closing. I'm also teaching him to sit before crossing the road. Hubby took him out for the evening walk, and forgot that one, but Winston didn't! Stopped dead and sat

Oh, and I have switched things up a bit...I leave him tethered to me for his walk, and carry a treat or 2 in my hand, eliminating the reaching in the pocket motion.

Edited by Melissa Charles (06/15/2008 11:03 PM)
Edit reason: adding info

Is there any way that your hand in your pocket has actually become the marker?
When I'm teaching a new command, I start to "help" them a little less and less before actually putting the food up. Like the down command...
I will "lead" them to the floor using it, and mark the behavior with food and voice. As they start dropping quicker (usually in the first minute or so) I will lead less and less and will wait after saying the command. If they are starting to connect the dots, waiting 5 secs or so after saying it the dog will start running through their "tricks" to get the food, and will lay down looking up at me. I usually get to the point of quick response with treats in hand but not visible, and only hand signal before putting treats in a pocket or pouch. I also switch up which hand does the signal and which has the treat. This way, there are fewer movements on my part to confuse the dog as to which movement is the actual command or marker.

Wow I'm tired. Just saw someone else wrote the same thing.
About the door thing - you can also try blocking with a leg and a verbal "wait" or something along those lines.

 Quote: melissa charles

I have ordered the pack and family pet dvd, as well as obedience, but they're several weeks away from delivery. (The joys of living in Canada, lol!)

You'd be surprised. I ordered 2 DVDs and a bottle of Salmon oil a couple weeks ago and they were at my door 6 days later. (I live in Ontario). At the time of ordering the software said 2 weeks.

Anyway back on topic.

With my 9 month old, who also does not really "know" the sit command but usually guesses it correctly lol, I say "sit" to him and wait to the count of 2 (at the point where, if he did know the command, I would give a correction), and then I "help" the dog by placing him into a sit position. Then I reward him as though he thought of it all by himself.

I usually have to do this everytime I expect a sit in a new situation. I have had my pup since birth so we have done sit a few times. He understands, for example, SIT when it is time for his supper dish to be put down, or if I have a treat or something he wants.

I then introduce a new situation such as the automatic SIT while heeling, or SIT before going out the door. In the new situation he needs "help" and to be placed in the correct position until he understands what is expected of him.

When you get your basic dog obedience DVD, you will see that Ed does not teach it like I do by touching and positioning the dog. Instead he uses treats to sort of lure the dog into the correct position. However, this is for initial obedience training and not sitting at the door. You will see in your pack structure DVD that Ed doesn't use treats when he is showing Snickers to sit at the door to go out.

I have very highly treat motivated dogs and I find that when I tried to teach sitting at the door that way, the dog focuses on the treat and not what I am saying to him, and it took longer for him to figure things out. Also he would not do it if I didn't have a treat, because he hadn't focused on me and didn't know what I wanted.

EDIT: Cameron is describing is how to phase out using food as a lure and begin using it as a reward. Excellent advice. My advice was more how to help your dog obtain the reward without needing to use food as a lure in the beginning. For me, I just found that treats were an actual distraction for my guy going outside. Your mileage may vary.

At some point your dog will understand the actual word and when this happens, he will be able to generalize and will carry out the command even in new situations. I would honestly say, with my dogs at least, it is *months* before this happens. Until then it is patient practise, practise, practise.