I just observed a puppy obedience class that uses an ALL positive approach. They NEVER correct a dog or tell him no. She said that if you tell a puppy "no" for peeing on the rug he will think that he'll only get scolded for peeing on that one spot so you should never tell him no.

I explained to her that I was giving my 12 week old puppy a short leash correction for approaching my toddler (I want her to have boundaries and just co-exist.) This is working for me. The trainer told me that my dog would become aggression and turn on me or my child if I continued to use "physical" corrections. She also said that Cesar Milan is being sued by many, many people and his methods are ALL WRONG.

Do any of you have experience with this sort of training? Should I stay away from her or is this good stuff? I've read almost EVERYTHING on Ed's site and this does not seem to jive with him at all. They seriously use ZERO corrections......

Any thoughts? My friend wants me to learn from this lady. This is her website http://www.shannonholstein.com/

Vanessa, I use all possitive with puppies, but not for all of my training all of the time with every animal. Purely possitive does not work for certain situations and behaviors such as behavior mod of aggression as an example or with handler aggression specifically.

Cesar Milan's methods work great for Cesar Milan, right on his show it says not to attempt these techniques without consulting a professional.

For the learning/teaching phase of puppies or any dog with Obedience and such I use possitive motivational methods, but personally I do not hold to a 100% possitive standard. There are those dogs that do great on just possitive methods but I'd like to see Ms. Holstein train a Malinois for Mondioring 100% motivationally My point being that no single method works on every dog for every situation.

I know 100% PR trainers that would rather put dogs down than give a correction for a behavior.... because possitive methods won't work on whatever the dog's issues are.

For puppies I think it is a good standard and that your puppy likely does not understand your leash corrections (why, exactly, are you correcting for approaching your toddler? What is the goal?) But I use the 3 phases of training... learning, then correction, then distraction. I will incorporate distraction into environmental exposure sessions without commands or learning, and I will at times test the focus of a pup or dog under distraction without expecting them to learn, etc.

In the end it is up to you and I applaud attempts to keep training and work with a dog all possitive as I think if it is possible it is a great goal, but IME it does not work for all dogs and the PP trainers I know are kind of out there, extremists if you will. They tend to only have or work with dogs that the methods work for and with aggression their first thought is to euthanize the dog. Just speaking of the trainers I have met personally, however. I am sure they are not all like that.

I don't correct puppies at all, there is no need for it. Corrections can be replaced by better handling.

However, I would stay away from that trainer simply because I don't like her BS attitude. Its a little misinformed and obsessive.

Heh well thanks Mike I wasn't going to say it

I wasn't perfectly clear above, I DO use all possitive no corrections with puppies, i.e. the learning phase.

When evaluating training I like to use the statement. Is this fair to the dog?

100% positive has it's place during the learning phase and I do believe puppies should be puppies. Would you correct a child who doesn't understand what you want, a new employee who was just hired in, or would you make an attempt to get them to understand what you want before you start grounding or writing employee action memos? It's easy to teach a behavior but very hard to correct to a behavior you want.

Once a dog fully understands 110% what I want and can perform the task reliably I then move into a correction phase. This seems to be where the road splits between you and this trainer. Classes mainly focus for the most part on the learning phase so in that way the trainer is right that no corrections should be allowed as you're trying to get your dog to do something as opposed to not do something. However if your trainer cannot get by that she missed her calling at Seaworld perhaps you should find a new trainer as correction for disobeying a command that is known is part of normal dog behavior.

That said there are certain behaviors that in my opinion require an extinction correction. Extinction means well timed enough and severe enough that the dog will not want to even attempt the matter again. A great example is handler aggression, another is poison proofing dogs, or in the one thing I have delt with is car chasing in the case of a rescue dog who would violently lunge to the street every time a car passed dragging me or knocking over my bike. I can see no reason to ever do this kind of correction on a puppy.

good luck with your pup. Remember, it's your dog and your decision how you will raise that dog.

As far as correcting my puppy with my toddler, she's a bull terrier and 25lbs and 12 weeks old and she used to run and just jump right in his face, I keep her on a drag and when she would go towards him I would tell her "no" and give her leash a tug, It's almost a stretch to really call it a correction, it's like a "hey, look at me" type of thing. And it has worked, she can play around him and now calmly approach him and if she starts licking him too hard or getting too excited I just tell her "no" and she stops.

I totally get the all positive in the learning phase, I guess what I'm trying to wrap my mind around is no corrections at all. She said that if she had a dog and was walking him and the dog starting lunging, barking, growling, at another dog she would just move the dog out of that situation. So the dog learns that if he barks at other dogs then he gets removed. I'm thinking, if that worked than no dog in America would be aggressive...

She did have some good methods in the class, but she said that you CAN NEVER MIX POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT. Which made no sense to me. You either have to be all positive or the training won't work.

And if I correct my dog she's going to turn on me!! That was concerning...

I know if she read this site she'd think Ed was the devil incarnate!

 Quote: Vanessa Dibernar

She said that if she had a dog and was walking him and the dog starting lunging, barking, growling, at another dog she would just move the dog out of that situation. So the dog learns that if he barks at other dogs then he gets removed. I'm thinking, if that worked than no dog in America would be aggressive...

hmmm, but what exactly is the dog learning in that situation, I wonder? I don't think that it would ever learn that barking/growling at another dog is not acceptable behavior, using that method.

I have read on a well-known clicker training website, that even turning your back on a jumping dog (ie not rewarding the undesired behavior) can be construed as a correction, and therefore a no-no.

I think you have to use common sense and your own judgement. (which it sounds like you are doing! )

 Quote: melissa thom

However if your trainer cannot get by that she missed her calling at Seaworld perhaps you should find a new trainer...

That's funny. Now I'm trying to picture what a correction on an orca would look like... PR is obviously the safer training technique!

I think there is a very important role for both positive and negative reinforcement in dog training. Depending on the dog, and the type of training/work the animal is being asked to do, the ratio of one to the other would be unique. Really soft, bright dogs might be fine with no corrections at all; hard, sharp and driven protection sport dogs might need very regular and serious corrections to keep them on track. I suspect though that most dogs of companion status need a middle of the road approach that is led by PR, but supported by NG when necessary.

The training sessions I took Oscar to when he was younger were very much PR based - they ADAMANTLY steered me away from prong collars (it would take me 2 years to realize what I was missing ) - but they did use squirt bottles and "lesser" corrective techniques, so it was a bit of a mix. In retrospect, I know now that my very large, VERY willful 9 month old male could have done a LOT better with some proper negative reinforcement (not proper as in harsh, just well applied), and I regret spending so long being frustrated with techniques that weren't right for us... live and learn.

~Natalya

I’m still trying to see how the orca analogy applies to dogs. Sure, if you try to physically correct an orca it might decide to hurt you. BUT, orcas are contained and idiots don’t walk them down the street. If the orca “acts up” the trainer can just exit the pool. The orca cannot chase the trainer and nip at his/her heels incessantly. Orcas also don’t escape their pens, run down the street, and attack the neighbor’s dolphin. Orcas don’t (that I know of) reach over their fence and snap at passers by. I would bet a fair amount of money that if an orca reached out of it’s pool, snatched up a baby, and swam to the bottom of its pool, there would be some degree of non-positive reinforcement to get that baby back. Can you see a trainer saying to a distraught parent “I’m sorry. We aren’t willing to try everything in our power to save your baby. We don’t want to hurt the orca’s feelings or risk making it agressive.”

Sheesh. I'm gonna have some weird dreams tonight.