I have a 9 month old male. I take the opportunity to train whenever we play ball or tug with the rag. I will hold the rag still as he very eagerly waits in front of me until he barks then I pull the rag up and back and give him a bite and swing. We tug for a while and then if he is pulling hard I let him pull it from me. Sometimes I will firm up and out him. He outs nicely when I firm up and then I give hime another bite or wait for a bark.

What I notice with the rag or ball is that the consistent bark is coming very slow. He seems to be more associating the movement of his mouth (snaping of the jaws) with the reward. The snapping of his jaws is increasing and consistent but it always takes a while for the bark. Does anyone have an explanation for why the snaping of the jaws (movement of barking) would be conditioned faster? I have never rewarded for the snapping without a bark.

I wanted to add one other thing. I have noticed this in the other dogs I have trained. The first one I thought it happened because I originally reenforced that thinking we would move up to sound. That was a mistake. It became very patterned then.

I won't pretend to know WHY some dogs snap their jaws instead of barking but the ones I've seen do it (including one of mine) mainly do it in high prey, but not when they are being aggressive. This makes it tough for the handler to work it cuz the dog won't show/feel aggression towards the handler. I have two possible suggestions for reducing it. First, bring his frustration up higher before asking for barking. I like to do this in play by having the dog platz (if your pup knows it yet). I back off slowly, then suddenly sprint to a wall, spin around and freeze. Sometimes hiding the toy behind your back is more effective also. The dog races you, just misses out on getting his bite and is blocked by you, so he pegs the frustration meter and sometimes barks very well. The other way to reduce it is to refuse to reward snapping jaws. This means every time he snaps, that ends that opportunity to earn the reward - game over (but only for a moment). But the very first time you ask for barking and he responds with a true bark on his first effort - instant reward, praise, play. This may take a week of patience, being absolutely rigid in your refusal to accept snapping even when he immediately follows it with barking. You must break off the game at that first snap. But if it's a bark first, play. If you give in and reward the snap, you will thoroughly confuse him and ruin all your previous work. He will make the connection between his behavior and the reward, honest!

Hi Eric,

Well from your post there a few things come to mind.

1) After the puppy understands the game enough to “bite and swing” with the owner needs to stop training this game and find a helper to do the work. The conflict of training and play biting is too much to ask for and will suppress any fight drive the dog has.

2) “Sometimes I will firm up and out him.” -- Because you are the owner it is again a conflict if the dog is forced while biting to wonder if he is being good. Result is often pensive or mouthing problems.

3) “He outs nicely when I firm up.” -- His firming up may be considered a directive he fells your influence and because he seems to be tractable outs clean.

4) “What I notice with the rag or ball is that the consistent bark is coming very slow.” -- This is because of the conflict you are creating in his bite work training…see all of the above.

5) “He seems to be more associating the movement of his mouth (snapping of the jaws) with the reward.”

6) “The snapping of his jaws is increasing and consistent but it always takes a while for the bark. Does anyone have an explanation for why the snapping of the jaws (movement of barking) would be conditioned faster?” – The snapping is the result of pressure being internalized in his prey drive. The snap and movement of is what I call a “threshold indicator.” Meaning the evidence of a triggered action like barking is very close. You can use (or better I say your helper at this point) this to your advantage and make your prey object move away from the dog at an angle and out of reach.

Pause again not looking at the puppy and wait for either a Bark or the movement of a bark and move. A good helper should be able to read the dog well enough to know that the dog needs a rewarded bite for a good bark. Timing is everything.

If the helper cannot get the same response you have had with the dog snapping of the jaws and movement of barking while doing agitation work, try placing the prey object on a long rope (15 – 20 feet is likely fine) and put some distance between the helper and the puppy. This should get the pup to relax and focus in prey.

Keep tension on the back line as it will help your puppy’s confidence but I will mention since I just finished yelling at some people about it, BE QUIET and let the helper build the pressure in drive. If your helper is good and has the ability to foster the dogs drive and build it over time, any word you utter to you dog while he or she is doing the “building” will be distracting to a tractable puppy who is worried about what the owner is saying.

Sounds like you have a good start with a good puppy.

Gotta totally disagree with you Dennis on your statements that playing these games puts your dog into conflict and interferes with his development. The owner isn't trying to stimulate aggression or defense, only play/prey. And the rest is simply shaping of behaviors we need. Outing your own dog off a toy is harmful?? Not in my opinion or experience. I MUCH prefer my youngsters to learn the out thru this exact type of play, where the behavior is shaped, rather than in the typical club/helper situation where his drives are higher, thus making it more difficult for him to release, and where the helper may not be as patient as I am with my own dog.

Can I second that post Lee?

What conflict are you creating by playing with your dog? Unless you have a nervy crap dog, or are crazy and being a big dicky head pushing your dog into defense, where is the conflict coming from?

And playing prey games is certainly not going to inhibit the development of the dogs fight drive. Keeping the dog in prey for ever will, but we're only talking a pup here, who is learning to bark (in prey) for more tug-o-war games.

AND if you don't teach your dog an out before you get on a field you are doin' your dog pretty raw. Talk about conflict, who here likes to teach 16 month old dogs to out after 15 months of prey imprinting and foundation work?? Not I.

Why don't you explain what I'm missing. . .

One more vote for Lee and R V . May I also say to R.V. "I just love it when you talk that way" LOL

Lee that sounds like a good idea. He has ussually been snapping for a while and then a bark and then reward. He must be associateing the snapping and not the bark. He barks fine on a tie out. I only have this when he is free. There is some conflict more related to learning. Should I bite it, should I wait, he says no if I bite at wrong time, he's waiting for something-I'm not sure what, snapping, bark. Lets try this. You can see him trying to figure it out. I need to make it more clear. I agree with not rewarding even if there is a bark after the snap.

Lee, good advice.

When I taught the b/h with my dog, I started using a long tug (to avoid missing fingers). After he knew the basics of the exercise, I then practiced having the helper using the tug in a vertical position and when the dog was correct, he IMMEDIATELY snapped the tug to a horizontal position and gave the bite. I feel that this is a good way to teach the exercise for younger dogs as they are used to the tug and don't have to transition to the sleeve until the exercise is perfected. You can also do this with older dogs to teach if the dog is weither hectic on the sleeve, but calm on the tug (like mine was) or if they had had some sort of negative sleeve experience. This way, yo can train the exercise without having conflict with the sleeve. No loss of training time.

I got pretty good results. Good luck

I like to teach the out through home , play prey drives ,and the bark comes from the no movement of the prey and increases the drive the bark will come . I am with Lee here i like to teach out to a point at home before the dog gets to the field when you have so much going on there,and there are so many other things to focus on. Peter