Craig Brown wrote 09/27/2008 05:26 AM Conflicitng advice on outing ball? #210904 - 09/27/2008 05:26 AM
Craig Brown Webboard User Reg: 05-17-2008 Posts: 66 Loc: Offline	I've been told to stick my finger down 9 month gsd's throat to out prey and not pull the ball out as it promotes bad grip. The other person told me to pull it out as the dog learns to hold on and said the grip is probably not good enough to be outing dog anyway by sticking finger down throat. What are your opinions.
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Mike J Schoonbrood wrote 09/27/2008 05:41 AM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Craig Brown ] #210906 - 09/27/2008 05:41 AM
Mike J Schoonbrood Webboard User Reg: 04-30-2005 Posts: 2784 Loc: Toronto, ON Offline	Sticking your finger down the dogs throat???? That has got to be the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Who the hell are you training with? If my dogs grip isn't firm enough that I can yank it out of their mouth, I yank it out of their mouth and they will learn to bite harder. If they have a good grip, then I will trade for another ball or food. Sometimes it can take a while and a lot of effort to get the dog to trade, but you just have to be patient. I usually hold the dogs collar and have the string to the ball slack, because keeping the string on the ball tight just makes the dog want to hold onto it even more.
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Michele McAtee wrote 09/27/2008 06:07 AM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ] #210907 - 09/27/2008 06:07 AM
Michele McAtee Webboard User Reg: 02-05-2006 Posts: 1121 Loc: Iowa City, Iowa Offline	IMO, the throat thing is just a confusion to the dog. (AKA RETARDED) Make sure whatever you are playing with is still, and like Mike said, loose. No tension, even in your hands that are holding the item. When it goes still, and the dog outs naturally, mark and then make the toy come "alive" again. I've been doing this with my lil mutt and when his mouth started coming off naturally, (after he held on for quite a bit) I'd mark and play again, then added the OUT command. Trading also works well, but... When you do trade Mike, at what point do you add the OUT command?
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Craig Brown wrote 09/27/2008 08:17 AM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Michele McAtee ] #210911 - 09/27/2008 08:17 AM
Craig Brown Webboard User Reg: 05-17-2008 Posts: 66 Loc: Offline	so sticking your finger down the dogs tongue is a bad idea? You don't think the dog will learn it always loses the ball and hence stops trying to grip it when i yank it out?
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Mike J Schoonbrood wrote 09/27/2008 08:30 AM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Craig Brown ] #210912 - 09/27/2008 08:30 AM
Mike J Schoonbrood Webboard User Reg: 04-30-2005 Posts: 2784 Loc: Toronto, ON Offline	If the dog is worth a damn and you are doing it properly (its not hard), the dog will get more intense. You need to go straight back into teasing the dog with the ball, not just yank it out and walk away "game over." If a working dog gives up and lets go when you do that then you should get a different dog.
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Mike J Schoonbrood wrote 09/27/2008 08:32 AM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ] #210913 - 09/27/2008 08:32 AM
Mike J Schoonbrood Webboard User Reg: 04-30-2005 Posts: 2784 Loc: Toronto, ON Offline	If I had someone to hold a camera I'd post a video of this stuff, its really easy. It should all be covered in one or the other Leerburg DVD's too. Don't know which ones, probably building drive & focus will cover "how to play with your dog."
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randy allen wrote 09/27/2008 09:35 AM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ] #210914 - 09/27/2008 09:35 AM
randy allen Webboard User Reg: 08-30-2007 Posts: 3283 Loc: Offline	Craig, Sticking a finger down the dogs throat? Sticking a finger down on the tongue? I have kinda a soft dog and I'd get bit if I tried something like that. Try it with an intense dog and one is liable to lose a finger AND set back any bonding you have going to boot. At least imho. Gotta be one of the lamest ideas I've heard in a long time. You're pulling our legs, right? Randy
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Guest1 wrote 09/27/2008 09:43 AM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: randy allen ] #210915 - 09/27/2008 09:43 AM
Guest1 Webboard User Reg: 07-17-2002 Posts: 860 Loc: Iowa Offline	I think it was on Ivan's DVDs where he addressed this explicitly; that with bad training the "out" simply turns into a "marker" for punishment and the release is incidental to a stimulus which jars his senses off the seized object, without the dog really knowing what happened. He really isn't given the opportunity to realize that not only does he have a choice in the matter, but that his choice is critical if you want him to understand what you want, and why. Instead of treating the out as something the dog should neglect to do (i.e. NOT bite), turn into something which is percieved as pro-active; a volitional relinquishment; an action in and of itself, and is rewarded as such. P.S. Run screaming in the opposite direction of this trainer of yours.
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Aaron Myracle wrote 09/27/2008 12:27 PM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Guest1 ] #210923 - 09/27/2008 12:27 PM
Aaron Myracle Webboard User Reg: 06-06-2008 Posts: 5062 Loc: WA, USA Offline	I've heard of gagging a dog, as part of food refusal/poison proofing training (and even then, only on very hard, stubborn dogs)- I have never EVER heard of training the out that way. Sounds like a recipe for a dog that redirects onto the handler after the out.
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Craig Brown wrote 09/27/2008 03:43 PM Re: Conflicitng advice on outing ball? [Re: Aaron Myracle ] #210938 - 09/27/2008 03:43 PM
Craig Brown Webboard User Reg: 05-17-2008 Posts: 66 Loc: Offline	Thanks guys. Her uncle just won the bsp so i'm hoping there's some talent in her to work with. The person who told me this knows what they are doing as they've been to worlds and achived some high scores in sch3 under top judges. This is why i'm confused. The sticking the finger down the tongue is supposed to irritate th dog to spit out the ball then carry on playing. it scares me as my fingers are right at the back where the force is the strongest. When I initially got her her ball grip was bad and so I never pulled it out her mouth as he said and now I can swing her around which is 1000% better than before. He is the one that will help me train her to sch3 and this is why I think I should trust him?
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