We have had one Shiba for about 3-4 years that is not crate trained (she had been as a pup, but we didn't know the importance of it and therefore never enforced it). We also got a new Shiba who is 3 years old and was crate trained and we've been enforcing it a la the Establishing Pack Structure DVD. We haven't started the pack program with our existing pup.. I want to get all the way through it first.

Anyway, its my understanding that its a good idea to place the dog crate someplace where people are (unless the dog won't quit carrying on - I seem to recall Ed saying he'd put it in the garage). I also know that you introduce new dogs by using a crate, but I think either someone on the forum or one of the articles/dvd's said you should complete pack structure before introducing new dogs.

Would it therefore be best to crate train in isolation until pack structure is complete or would it be okay to go ahead and place the crates out in the open? Our new dog's behavior in the crate seems to be somewhat going backwards and I think it might be in part due to isolation. He seems very content to lay down next to me, tied to my chair.

Hi, Ryan,

I'm a little lost. What does "crate trained as a pup but not enforcing it" mean? The senior dog is not housebroken? Or she has free run of the home? Does she have a crate?

What does Our new dog's behavior in the crate seems to be somewhat going backwards mean?

How long has the new dog been with you?

We didn't get her (Essey, the senior dog) as a pup. At that time, she had been used to spending time in her airline crate which we still have. She was and continues to be housebroken, and has never really caused any problems. So, pretty much since we got her, she has had free run of the house... I think the crate is of sufficient size. She probably has to lower her head a little to go in, but once in she's not hitting her head on the ceiling, although her ears may brush it. She can turn around and lay down, though. (You're may be wondering why we haven't started back with the crate with Essey. Right or wrong, my thinking was this: I started with the other one, Yuki, because I wanted to take advantage of the fact we were still beginning our relationship with him. I waited with Essie because I wanted to have a better understanding of the whole pack structure program first.)

Yuki, has been with us for 5 or 6 weeks. By his behavior going backwards, I mean he whines more often and for longer than he did when we got him. At first, he was pretty quiet from the moment we put him in. Now, he tends to whine after being put in for a while. Sometimes when we're trying to go to sleep, he is incessant. I am thinking there are a couple of causes - I am working my way through the pack structure DVD and so he's spending a lot of time in his crate. I think that 1) he may be bored or lonely (not that I let him out in response to whining, but when he is out and tied to my chair, he's totally quiet) and 2) he probably needs more exercise.. he doesn't always get much of a walk.

I won't say this is part of the going backwards because it happened once or twice right when we got him, but he has also pottied in his crate a couple of times recently. My thinking here is 1) He may just have been in too long and unable to hold it and 2) as I learn about crate training, I am thinking this one is too big. It's probably big enough for two dogs his size to lay down side by side.

Thanks for your help, Connie!

Why not do the pack structure thing with both dogs. Just start over. Make sure they get plenty of exercise, One dog at a time. Together on occasion. This may last two days or two months,just depends.

I recently acquired a new dog so....all four dogs are are back to square one and are promoted for good behavior. Some gain a fair amount of freedom rather quickly others not so fast. When they mess up it's back a step.

Don't over think it. Make things very black and white for the dogs. There is no gray areas right now. The answer is yes or no. Keep it positive with lots of praise and reward as long as possible.

Best regards,
Debbie