I've been woking with the 12 week old female GSD pup, her "sit" is pretty good, her "come" is a charging gallop, she walks on leash nicely.

Now her down, is a problem or lets say it not the way I want it. When I issue the command she doesn't really want to do it, but the flat hand slowing going to the ground and she will down, but not before knawing on and circling the hand.

I don't want to do the leash stomp method, it really killed some of the drive in my Rottiex, when she was a puppy. Though it worked well with the male GSD pup, he still responds well to the stomp from long distance, for a quick down.

Should I stay with the verbal or should I go to (and I hate it) food??? Or just endure with her downing with my hand in her mouth? Ouch!

Hi,

A 12 week old puppy should not be getting any leash corrections (if that's what you mean by the leash stomp method). Why don't you try dropping a piece of food between her front legs........keep everything fun and positive, you don't want to kill drive.

John I agree that puppy training should be upbeat and fun, and it seems to be for her. I'm was just wondering how is dropping pieces of food between her front paws gonna make her down. Wouldn't she just pick it up and eat it?

The food technique I would try would be from the sit, slide the front paws out, Say "down', praise and treat if she stays in the down for a 1/2 second or two. This works now sometimes without the treat, but sometimes she wants to wrestle with the hand thats pets her.

Her attention spand is really short except when it comes to fun stuff like retrieving and play bitting.

The way I taught it to my dogs was to first find a area free of any distractions and pretty familiar to the dog. For me it was my hallway with a baby gate. I would have the pup drive at me having shown them that I had food. I'd treat for about a minute, walking away from the pup the entire time so that they'd follow, pouncing on me to trying to get the food. I'd do this to peak the puppies food drive. Once I had the pups undivided attention, I'd walk backwards with them following and in one quick motion I'd drop my hand (fist with the treat inside) to the ground in between the legs and about an inch from the chest. Both of my boys would crumple in an ideal down and I'd open my hand with the reward. About 30 or so repetitions of this and they had it. This kept things fun without me having to physically manipulate the position. Takes a little patients but I feel the pay-off is worth it as the dog has solved the problem on his own. To me the lesson seems to remain with the dog longer because he now truely understands when I do this I'm rewarded.

Something to try. I wouldn't worry about the food so much. As long as you fade it with a variable reward type method there should be no dependence. I trained my oldest GSD by physically manipulating him into the postions and compulsion (once he was 8 months on the compulsion) and to this day he does good OB but it's very flat. He seems to resent it somewhat and gets stressed about doing it. My other dogs can't stop wagging their tails when I doing a OB routine with them.

You live and learn but I'll never put heavy compulsion on my dogs again without fully motivating them to be a willing student of what I'm trying to teach them.

Hi Don,
I thought I would add one more suggestion on teaching the down. In young pups if you wait for them to perform the behavior and then reward the behavior (timing is very crucial with the reward) and it will take several repetitions. Once the pup is performing the behavior for the reward you then can add the hand signal and verbal. I think you'll experience a dog that will always have lightning fast downs.
Good Luck!!!

Chad I like that approach, I'll give that a swing treat, walk back drop the clench fist down to their chest and then between her front paws, this should get me my down. After 30 such repetitions.
Alrights!!

When should I try this without the treats?
Should I train a week an then start weaning her off the treat gradually by alternating one down with praise, the next with treats until its eventually just for praise.

Karen so you are saying teach the action without assoicating the verbal command? Then after she is doing the down start teaching the verbal connection with action, then hand signal?

Thats a new approach for me, I usually don't use food, until the command is understood then I use it as a distraction (hold position until say you can get the food) or reward for extented held or quickly done commands.

I'm kinda doing this in reverse, teaching the hand signal, then command, then a treat=Me praise. I'll try that too, I mean she chewing my hide, it mats as well be a treats.

Thanks
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My thoughts are that a puppy/dog learns the most and retains it best when it's in drive. You should use the food drive to your advantage. So yeah, give it a go.

What I'd do is this..., by the way, I use a clicker for OB. I know that some may disagree. But wow, does it ever get their attention and makes learning fast. And I'd agree with Karen on omitting the command for now. I usually don't say a word when I'm teaching a new skill not even praise. I've found it gets in the way until they get what I'm teaching. It's babble that they don't understand anyway. That's why I use the clicker. Crisp, clear and quick. It makes an effective maker for the activity you want to reinforce. Anyway I usually try to read my dogs. My five month old is learning quicker than any dog I've ever owned. I would give it at least a couple two or three days. Short quick sessions... two or three times a day. I like to see the dog begin offering the behavior on his own. This reinforces to me that he knows making this action is a good thing and it's a "hey dad, look what I'm doing" kinda of attitude.

Once your seeing that he's learning. Shorten the movement. Don't drop your hand all the way to the ground this time. Keep doing this until your making just a slight gesture with your hand puts the dog in a down. IMO, that's when they are ready for the verbal command. If you haven't been talking to them a lot during these training sessions and you start to say platz or auf or whatever you'll use and give the slight hand gesture you'll be amazed at how quickly they'll associate that word with the specific movement.

At that point I'd start asking for time. As Ed says time before distractions before distance. When he goes into a down on a verbal command don't reward him immediately make him hold it 3-5 seconds, then 2 seconds, then 7 seconds. Keep him guessing. Sometmes reward comes quick sometimes slowly but in order to obtain it he must remain focused. This keeps him off gaurd and teaches him the principle of holding the command until you release. Once he understands the principle making the jump to one minute, 3 minute downs and greater is pretty easy.

I hope I covered everything here. Best of luck.

O' BTW: I begin to fade food once the dog has a clear understanding of the verbal command and your sure of it. Clicker goes too at that point. Be patient and let him convince you he knows what your asking. Because you cannot fairly correct him if there's any doubt that he knows what your asking.

Hey Don,
I train the down same way with food in a clenched fist between the front legs and close to the ground. As soon as the pup goes down, I open my hand and he gets his treat. They catch on very fast.

Don,
Yes you are teaching the down prior to using any verbal or hand signal. I didn't mention in my post the clicker but I do use it to mark the behavior but you really could use anything to mark the behavior and reward the dog. The reason I like this method is you don't have to change anything you do. The dog learns the hand signal the proper way. You don't have to fool around with food on the floor or between the dogs legs etc. It does take patience but it pays off because you'll end up with a very quick down without having to sit first. As far as the treat is concerned that you reward your dog with you will eventually make it variable and can slowly fade it. Make training time fun for your pup and you...Good Luck!!!

Clickers! Clickers! are you guys those type trainers?? I thought that was just a theory, does it really work? Just playing I guest.

You too, Karen a Clicker?

I tried the food in the clenched hand she did a nice down, licking my fist. I opened up giving her rewards, she poppped up as soon as she finished eating, does she know that she even did a down??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Now she did it four or five times then we went on to something else.

The down looked good and she didn't bite my fingers but I don't see the connection. Do you let her just eat the food, or do you praise her to let her make the connection? Oh I re-read the instruction you later reinforced the idea with the verbal.

Great, but I don't know why or how, yet. Just like Clicking. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Is that going forward or backwards.