Lucy is a snapper. So far, she is either muzzled or sedated at the vet's just to get a blood work or physical and I hate that. She will let me brush and pet/pat her body, and rub her belly. She is better at letting me look at her ears, but not cleaning them, and I can lift her lip (if I am quick) but that's it. As far as her front feet, NO WAY! She snaps air and if she does come in contact with me (from her molars to her canines), she doesn't crush down, but does press and let go. She does give fair warning: curls lip, tilts head, and a small growl if you don't pay attention to her other signals.

Okay, I could get a prong but I would rather do this another way.
I want to use marker training and/or shaping.


So, my question is: What do I mark? Do I mark full compliance? Do I mark a near touch (i.e. not moving her paw away if my hand is near or not moving her head away if my hand is near)? Do I mark a compliance even if its accompanied by a raised lip? Has anyone gone through this?

To clarify: I haven't been working much on this right now. I am mostly working on leash manners, sit, and down.



I am confused and I don't want to confuse her, too.

I get the Basic Obedience DVD next week in the mail (hopefully) but should I be ordering the Dominant Aggressive Dog DVD also?

I could be totally wrong!! but I would start with a near touch but not if she raises her lip.

Then gradually decrease the distance from your hand to her paw or ear or whatever.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. I think Cindy has a video on the website of her marking when she touches the dogs collar. This would be almost on the same principle. Like the OP said. It might take some time but eventually she will begin to trust you with your hands by/on/around her mouth.

Edited by Chris Ciampi (03/25/2009 09:26 PM)
Edit reason: sp

 Quote: Jo Harker

I get the Basic Obedience DVD next week in the mail (hopefully) but should I be ordering the Dominant Aggressive Dog DVD also?

I wouldn't get a prong but would think about getting pack structure as well as marker training. Doesn't sound like you need the dominant DVD but if you feel you do it can't hurt to have more information about dog behavior.

 Quote: Jo Harker

To clarify: I haven't been working much on this right now. I am mostly working on leash manners, sit, and down.

Don't know how long you have had this dog. But I would focus more on the bonding and trust instead of sit, down etc... You can encoporate that but get her to trust you first. That should help.

I don't know if this will help, but I read some information on getting your dog comfortable with using a dremel on their claws. It recommended simply touching the dremel on the paw (turned off) and marking/rewarding for just allowing the touch. Then after a few days of this, turn the dremel on, just touch the claw but not grind it, mark/reward, etc... This allowed for gradually building up to working on the paw, rewarding each small step.

I used this for Falcon and it went perfectly - I can now dremel his nails with no problem, as long as I still reward each claw trimming...

This might be applicable to your situation by using the marker/reward for simply gently touching the side of her mouth for a few days/several times a day. Then moving to just briefly touching/lifting the lip, etc... Perhaps by breaking the process up into smaller, less intrusive steps, the process will become more comfortable and less intimidating for your dogs.

I have to say, my hat is off to you folks who adopt/foster/own these dogs which require far more than the regular house-hold pet. How fortunate they to have found you guys - seriously.

Preview

 Quote:

Chris Ciampi


I wouldn't get a prong but would think about getting pack structure as well as marker training. Doesn't sound like you need the dominant DVD but if you feel you do it can't hurt to have more information about dog behavior.

Good. I didn't want to get a prong for her yet, if ever. I do have marker training and pack structure DVD's. I knew I needed those with her. The Dominant DVD I might get just to be informed and see if there is anything I can use. The vet's office has her down as very aggressive and I am afraid they may never give her a chance. She requires patience and soft voices when she is panicked. Only one of them has patience. (And, that is making me impatient. NOT good for the dog).

 Quote:

Chris Ciampi

 Quote:

Jo Harker

To clarify: I haven't been working much on this right now. I am mostly working on leash manners, sit, and down.


Don't know how long you have had this dog. But I would focus more on the bonding and trust instead of sit, down etc... You can encoporate that but get her to trust you first. That should help.

How do you establish trust? I try NOT to push her buttons (but I don't molly coddle her either), we walk, work on obedience (so she needs to obey me but have fun doing it), groom, etc. I know I need to be patient. Others have told me the same thing. I need to just breathe and let her set the pace?

 Quote:

Barbara Schuler


I have to say, my hat is off to you folks who adopt/foster/own these dogs which require far more than the regular house-hold pet. How fortunate they to have found you guys - seriously.

thanks Barbara. To be honest, I didn't know just how "quirky" she was. (I would have still adopted her, but I would have been more prepared.) She is my special challenge and my first to use strictly marker and shaping. I think I need to wrap my mind around the fact that marker will take longer than compulsion...but she will be a whole dog if I use markers. A shell of a dog if I use compulsion.

Thanks for the tips! I will settle down and shape/mark nearness, enjoy her accomplishments, and just enjoy her--quirks and all.

Oh, and I am ordering the Thinking Dog. I love to read so this goes in my arsenal also.

I don't think marker training takes longer than compulsion when it comes to teaching new behavaiors, for solving problems it can, but IMO it solves them in such a gentle positive manner that it is worth it.

Doing basic obedience, taking walks, practicing manners are all good ways to bond, especially with the marker training.

I think that with her, hand feeding might be a really good thing, Its a quick way for them to see that all good things come directly from you. You can either do it by handfuls or throughout the day while training

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

I don't know if this will help, but I read some information on getting your dog comfortable with using a dremel on their claws. It recommended simply touching the dremel on the paw (turned off) and marking/rewarding for just allowing the touch. Then after a few days of this, turn the dremel on, just touch the claw but not grind it, mark/reward, etc... This allowed for gradually building up to working on the paw, rewarding each small step.

I used this for Falcon and it went perfectly - I can now dremel his nails with no problem, as long as I still reward each claw trimming...

This might be applicable to your situation by using the marker/reward for simply gently touching the side of her mouth for a few days/several times a day. Then moving to just briefly touching/lifting the lip, etc... Perhaps by breaking the process up into smaller, less intrusive steps, the process will become more comfortable and less intimidating for your dogs.

I have to say, my hat is off to you folks who adopt/foster/own these dogs which require far more than the regular house-hold pet. How fortunate they to have found you guys - seriously.

If I may ask, which bit do you use with the Dremel?