I've listened to Ed's podcast on marker training. I've watched much of the "Power of Training with Marker's" DVD. I've also bought _The Power of Positive Dog Training_ by Pat Miller. I bought this book for mainly two reasons: first, it was available as an ebook; second, it has a week by week training plan. I'm pleased that much of what Pat's saying in her book is right on line with what Ed says in his material.

I think I understand the basic concepts of Marker Training and specifically shaping. I've seen the video of people doing the training (particularly Cindy training Raine to pick up a PVC pipe) and that makes sense to me.

Here's what I don't get. My dog sits all the time. She can mostly sit on command. Prior to officially starting marker training I was using some other forms of luring to teach her sit and down. Knowing what I know now, I shouldn't have named it sit until I was really happy with it. But how is she supposed to know that I want her to sit? With a previous dog and Petsmart training we had hand signals that you'd do to cue the dog what you wanted. With marker training, it seems like we're wanting the dog to just read our mind (or our body, emotions, energy, whatever) and somehow deduce we want sit.

So my dog sits and I mark it and reward. And she's sitting there. So I move and she sits and watches me. I can put my hand out and she'll come to me and do the nose touch (that I mark and reward). Do I just stand there and wait for another sit? Maybe I'm supposed to reward in such a way that causes her to get up?

Am I only supposed to work on one behavior at a time? Should I just work on sit until she can do it on command before working on other stuff? I'm just not sure how to only do sit for like 10 minutes; particularly when she's pretty much got it. Maybe what I need to do is video one of my training sessions and post it for critique.

 Quote: Doug Alcorn

Maybe I'm supposed to reward in such a way that causes her to get up?

YES

Am I only supposed to work on one behavior at a time?
In my opinion, YES

Should I just work on sit until she can do it on command before working on other stuff?

IMO, YES
I'm just not sure how to only do sit for like 10 minutes; particularly when she's pretty much got it. Maybe what I need to do is video one of my training sessions and post it for critique.

How about working on a completely different command, from scratch for awhile. Like the hand touch?

When I start to get a little frustrated (mainly for not knowing what I'm doing; not with the dog) I switch back to hand touch. It's something Suzzie is pretty good at and is very useful.

Today we were in the yard. She was pretty much all the way across the yard with a toy. I called her name and she looked at me -- which I marked with a "yes!" and then held out my hand like for a touch. She had to think about it, but she got up and came and touched my hand! That happened twice.

I know she's a good pup and she's really smart. She figures stuff out fairly quick. Pretty much all of my frustration is just not really knowing what I'm doing. I thought I could jump right to "power of training with markers". There's a lot of good theory and information on it; but I'm disappointed it doesn't have more of the basic obedience stuff on it. Maybe I need to get that DVD too.

 Quote: doug alcorn

When I start to get a little frustrated (mainly for not knowing what I'm doing; not with the dog) I switch back to hand touch. It's something Suzzie is pretty good at and is very useful.

Once you are frustrated ending the session with the hand touch is a good idea but a better idea is to end the session before you become frustrated. You don't sound like you are having fun Doug.

In reading your post it sounds like some of your frustration is coming from not knowing what you want in addition to not quite "getting" how the marker training is supposed to work. Don't worry it will come to you; as will knowing when it is time to label the behavior.

I'll break down what a training session between me and my pup looked like when starting out; and see if having it broken down helps with your frustration.

First to prepare you need to make sure the marker is charged. With a pup as young as yours I might spend a few seconds recharging the marker to prepare her for the session.

Go to a completely distraction free area that she is familiar with. To recharge the marker begin walking around marking and dropping the treats. This should put the focus on you and the desire for her marker. If I recall correctly she is only 12 weeks old? At that age I prefer to wait for a behavior to mark vs luring. So I am pretty open to what I'll work on based on a behavior she offers that I choose to mark. Most pups I have found will "Sit" so I'll use that for my example.

Say you have dropped about 4 or 5 treats after marking and she is now focused on you and earning her marker; she may bark, try to jump up but she will soon sit and when she does mark and drop the treat in front of her so she has to stand to get it. She will probably sit soon after that and again mark and drop the treat. You will notice her sits happening quickly. When she has given you say ten sits add the "Sit" command right as she sits and mark for a few more repetitions. Keep the session to 5 to 10 minutes tops. Put her in her crate for some quiet time to absorb what you have taught her.

The next session: Again I always go back and repeat what I worked on in the previous session for a young pup or in the beginning stages for any training. (I don't know if anyone else does this but I find it works for me)

Drop a few treats to recharge the marker. Wait for her to sit mark and drop the treat repeat a half dozen times. Add "Sit" right as she sits repeat a dozen or so times. Try giving the command "Sit" before she sits and if successful repeat 3 or 4 times. End the session again keep it under 10 minutes and leave her in her crate for some quiet time.

Next session: You may or may not have to recharge the marker. If she throws you a sit when you look at her; don't bother
As she sits add the command "Sit" mark and drop the treat after a few repetitions give the command before the behavior. Again repeat this a dozen or so times; btw Doug you have now labeled "Sit"! And if you did each of these sessions in one day after only 15 to 30 minutes you have started her out with a strong foundation in the "Sit" command.

This scenario does not include any of the impediments that come with training; such as she is just not into it or you aren't into it or she won't offer the behavior you are looking for so keep an open mind and your patience. You are both learning a new language; it will come together sooner than later and practice does make perfect. Go have fun!

Sheila, this is exactly the reply I was hoping for! Thank you for taking the time to write it out. I'm following pretty close to what you've outlined, but may stray here and there.

I have a pretty vague idea what I mean when I say "I want a well mannered dog". But you're right, I'm not really sure what I'm working towards. It would probably do me good to actually think more about that and write it out. That would help me see better what I'm trying to accomplish.

I'm also VERY confused when it comes to dog training LOL. However, when I first started out, I found it helpful to think of a behaviour I wanted before I started the session. For example: today we're going to teach the dog to touch a can of dog food on the floor.

So then, I get an unopened can of dog food, place it on the floor near my dog and then wait with clicker and treats in hand for him to inspect it. *click!*/treat. The next day I might want to teach him to touch a target stick.

I just did very simple things like this until I could figure out how to do more complicated things, like backing up, laying down, or doing a sit-front finish.

Ed's basic dog obedience video shows how to do sit and down.

I also got a couple of clicker training books off this site that gave me some ideas.

My problem now is training more complex behaviours and chaining.

Sheila had a great description. And I second the notion to have fun!

 Quote: Angela Burrell

... My problem now is training more complex behaviours and chaining. ...

Give us an example. Someone else's steps might be exactly the light that will go on over your own head.

Have you taught a retrieve?

Quote: Have you taught a retrieve?
No, not yet. This is on my list though, but for when I'm more advanced.

Currently we are successful with sit, down and stand in place on a mat. Just today I decided he understands what each word means (rather than just guessing which position I want him in) since he had mostly successes. This was done with markers.

One thing I would like to train is a send-away. I want to eventually train for agility and I'd like to be able to indicate an obstacle (such as a jump) and be able to send him to it.
However, I've been training the heel and eye contact, so my initial attempts at training him to focus on something that is NOT ME haven't been very successful. Plus, I don't want to discourage him from his heelwork that we are just beginning. I've tried sending him to touch a target on the floor but if it's more than 3 feet from me he'll get confused (and so do I LOL).

So I guess what are the steps to send a dog away from you. This might be something fun for the OP's pup to do as well.

Now that I think about it, the send away and retrieve would be sort of similar, wouldn't they.

The reason I like "fetch" as a first chaining routine is that much of it can be started and perfected anywhere ... including sitting on the couch. LOL

The release into my hand, the picking up of the item -- these don't have to be started anywhere where something must be thrown.

At least, not when I teach fetch. (Yes, I am sometimes out on a field; I don't make my dogs learn everything beside a recliner. )

Reward question. I offer the reward in my hand, should I be dropping it? When I do drop the reward my dogs turn into furry Hoovers and I end up having to correct them.