Snippit from another thread:

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

 Quote: Siaty Mantak

Also, I would not do the pre-made raw patties. First, you don't know what is really in them, and second, you should at least once a week give her fresh organ meat (not previously frozen) for vitamin B5, which is very temperature sensitive (i.e., breaks down in the freezer). Also, the raw patties don't provide her with the opportunity to crunch and break things apart.

......And in regards to freezing, I'm sure the freshest of the fresh has optimum nutrition, but that can be tough depending on one's meal shop/prep/and store schedule. I shop twice a month for my dog's meals, often picking up large quantities of already frozen ingredients from the butcher... I spend a few hours breaking everything down into individual meals, then it's back in the freezer until feeding. With the exception of a few chicken livers here and there between the trip to the butcher and the meal prep, Oscar doesn't get much that hasn't been frozen at least lightly. BUT, his meals are also supplemented with fresh yogurt, fresh eggs, salmon oil and ground veggies and fruit, so I think the variety makes up for nutrient losses due to freezing, at least I hope it does. That's just my very UNexpert opinion though. Anyone else have thoughts about freezing and nutrient loss?

~Natalya

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

Thanks Jo , I'm sure lots of things (including B5) are diminished or lost with freezing, but I'm wondering if this effects anyone's raw feeding. Specifically, does anyone make sure their pups are getting not previously frozen organ/muscle meat at least once a week, or more often? Just curious.

~Natalya

Didn't know if no one had any extra thoughts, or if the thread got lost in the shuffle.

Thoughts in regards to Natalya's questions about nutrient loss from freezing?

Many (most?) raw feeders freeze their meat. Seems to me if freezing depleted the nutrients enough to be harmful then we'd be seeing it on lab results and hearing about it online and elsewhere. JMO

I buy a month's worth of pre-made raw at a time and add fresh RMBs and organs to that every day. Honestly, nothing stays around long enough for me to be concerned.

Meat does have a freezer "life" and after X amount of months it shouldn't be fed to animals OR humans. A good practice for people with chest freezers who like to stock up is to mark the containers/baggies with the date...so you know exactly how long something has been frozen.

Well, it works out that way with me, because the day the meat is bought, some is refrigerated rather than packaged up and frozen.

I'd hate not to be able to freeze while feeding a raw diet.

It's true that B5 in unstable, but it's common/plentiful, too. Here again is the usual "variety will cover this." Yogurt, greens, eggs, poultry, pumpkin, fish, and more contain B5.

And B5 deficiency in dogs is rare. I've never even heard of it happening outside of dogs on certain unusual meds.

I could look it up.

Natalya QUOTE: ... his meals are also supplemented with fresh yogurt, fresh eggs, salmon oil and ground veggies and fruit, so I think the variety makes up for nutrient losses due to freezing, at least I hope it does. END

I think it does, too.

Hey, thanks for bumping this up Michael!

 Quote: connie sutherland

Well, it works out that way with me, because the day the meat is bought, some is refrigerated rather than packaged up and frozen.

This is the case with me as well, but SO much of what I feed has been at least lightly frozen for a bit... just made me curious. And Oscar's food shares a regular kitchen sized freezer with the HUMAN food, so it would be impossible for meat to be in there more than a matter of weeks before we squeezed it out to make room for more. With the exception of the pig head that was gifted to me by the butcher... that's been in there a while (I secretly just want to find someone with dermestid beetles who will clean it for me withOUT leaving teethmarks all over it!)

 Quote:

It's true that B5 in unstable, but it's common/plentiful, too. Here again is the usual "variety will cover this." Yogurt, greens, eggs, poultry, pumpkin, fish, and more contain B5.

Zackly what I thought.

~Natalya

I don't believe my suggestion in the original post was not to freeze meat - that would be unrealistic. Instead, try to provide fresh organs and meats at least once a week. This was recommended by my holistic vet years ago where she cited the breakdown of some nutrients due to freezing, and was reinforced just two weeks ago in the second module of the Catherine O'Driscoll lecture series, who just pointed out B5 (pantothenic acid) and E (page 28 in the provided notes).

 Quote: Siaty Mantak

Catherine O'Driscoll lecture series, who just pointed out B5 (pantothenic acid) and E (page 28 in the provided notes).

Where are the provided notes?

Thanks for the answers.

I killed 2 deer last year that Turbo is getting the lot of. Those 2, in rotation with other foods that he gets for variety, will last a year from when they were killed. Meaning they'll spend some time in the freezer. A 40 lb. case of chicken backs or whole chickens spend a good amount of time in the freezer before we are through those, too.

With a little dog, I don't have to worry that much about getting deals at bulk, but why not? Money is money no matter how you fold it.

It sounded like a big deal in the original post on the subject, but then if one day worth of fresh meats fixes all, then it can't be that bad.

Thanks for clearing up my confusion.:smile:

 Quote: siaty mantak

I don't believe my suggestion in the original post was not to freeze meat - that would be unrealistic. Instead, try to provide fresh organs and meats at least once a week.

Oh no, I understood you Siaty. I was just wondering about the once a week part - because my "fresh frequency" is more like every 2 weeks, and some people (especially those like Michael, with widdle dogs , can store a lot of food for a loooong time before replenishing the stores... if feeding never frozen meat at somewhat frequent (like weekly) intervals is markedly better, in terms of nutrient gain, then I'd like to know, so I can try to adjust my current bi-monthly ritual.

Good discussion though, and I'd be curious to read transcripts of the O'Driscoll lectures, if they exist.

~Natalya

Hi Natalya,

I think many people who feed raw are trying to simulate what their animals would eat in nature, which is whole prey, often caught and eaten fresh, and sometimes scavenged. Given this, I prefer to provide fresh foods whenever possible since I know that most of the nutrients are intact. When this is the case, I do not need to worry as much about supplementing my animals' diets with various vitamins or other sources. In other words, I would much rather have my animals get their vitamins directly from the prey source. Of course, vegetable matter contains B5 as well, but like in meat, only remains intact when not exposed to hot or cold. I do not have a juicer or anything like that to pulverize vegetable matter so depending on vegetables as a source of B5 (this is only an example, and not to suggest that vegetable matter is the only B5 alternative) is simply not an option for me.

For my animals, my ideal feeding menu would comprise of fresh, wild caught whole prey items. However, given that I live in a city I do not have the luxury of raising my own rabbits, chicken, lamb, etc., to provide my animals (and myself), so I resort to the next best thing: scraps that I pick up from the local butcher. The day I pick up the scraps, I feed it to my animals on the same day, and then I freeze the rest. It is because I freeze that I supplement their diets with other food groups (again, this is just my preference based on my learnings and advice from my vet). This is also how I manage my own diet - I try my very best to buy local food and try to gain knowledge of how they treat their food. That is, I prefer meats that are not pumped full of hormones or vaccines (this is why I am not a fan of pre-packaged raw patties since where the meat comes from is sometimes unclear). My previous holistic vet who used to work (as a vet) for a commercial cattle farm emphasized that if you have the means and the option, to avoid meats from large commercial enterprises.

I think for a new raw feeder starting out on pre-made raw patties sold in pet stores, which are often frozen, is a great start. However, given that certain nutrients are temperature sensitive, the substantial learning curve around nutrition, I think it is easier for a newbie to provide some fresh meats and organs weekly than to start adding in various supplements (i.e., vegetables, yoghurt, pills, etc.). Moreover, I know many raw feeders who only feed pre-made frozen patties because that is as far as they would like to, and are interested in, going with the diet where anything more complex would become a burden. In those cases, it is probably even more important they pick up a package of fresh organ meat from the store. What I am basically saying, in a very long-winded and inelegant fashion, is giving fresh meats and organs is always beneficial and simple.

In Michael's case, if all he is feeding is the frozen deer (which is spectacular in my opinion - whole, wild caught) to his dog, it is probably a good idea to provide some fresh organ meat once a week. Alternatively, in your case, since you are familiar with the variety of foods and supplements you can provide your dog, feeding fresh less frequently is probably a non-issue. Again, as my former vet had emphasized - it is what you have the means and the options to do.

Regarding the O'Driscoll lectures, there are no transcripts, but at the end she does provide an outline (I referred to these as "notes" in my previous response) of all the slides she presents. I am not sure if the outline can be distributed. I do recommend the lecture - the second day in my opinion is the most relevant in terms of nutrition (and my interest), while the third and final day was a little "different" for me.

SM

Thanks, Siaty!

I thought you explained very elegantly.:smile:

Just more evidence that variety, and fresh whole food, is the way to go.