My new puppy is the first dog I've ever marker trained with. I've read Ed's article on marker training, browsed the forums, and done a little 'googling' to get a better idea of what marker training is and where I'm going with this. I started charging the mark a couple of days ago, keeping it short. I want to make sure that I'm charging the mark correctly. I try to do a charging session before she's had a meal so that she's hungry. I keep the treats in a container behind my back. With both of my hands at my sides I say "YES!", pause, and then reach behind my back with both of my arms and give Keiko the treat from one of my hands. I alternate hands because I noticed that she was beginning to expect the treat from one hand or the other. Is this the correct procedure for charging?

One other question I have is that before I started marker training, I'd already taught Keiko to sit and down. Sometimes after I've said yes (while I'm reaching for the treat) she'll sit or down. If I give her the treat after this, am I possibly rewarding her for sitting/downing or should she still be making the connection between the word "yes" and a reward?

 Quote: jasmine dillon

One other question I have is that before I started marker training, I'd already taught Keiko to sit and down. Sometimes after I've said yes (while I'm reaching for the treat) she'll sit or down. If I give her the treat after this, am I possibly rewarding her for sitting/downing or should she still be making the connection between the word "yes" and a reward?

As long as she was not performing those behaviors when you said 'yes', she should not associate them with the mark.

When you are charging the mark, wait for a moment when she glances away from you; say 'yes!' when she's not looking and you should see her look immediately at you for the treat. Once she does that, you know that she realizes that the word 'yes' means a treat is coming...

Thanks! Sometimes she looks at me when I say "yes" and other times she doesn't. I'm pretty careful about keeping my tone and inflection the same when I say it so I don't think that's the problem.. I think I may need to take a step back and not incorporate the pause before the treat. When I started charging the mark, I started out pausing and I think I may have done so for too long. I will try just saying yes and treating, then increasing the amount of time between the word yes and giving the treat. Do you think that would be an appropriate step back?

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/16/2009 07:56 PM)
Edit reason: eta

 Quote: Jasmine Dillon

My new puppy is the first dog I've ever marker trained with.

Fun isn't it?

I barely breath between mark and reward when charging the marker. Especially for young puppies; I think instant gratification is the best way to keep their interest. I fill my fists with small treats and stand with my hands at my side, I try for nonchalant and neutral. I don't want to distract away from the marker during the charging phase. I like starting with a clicker, it is a different noise and gets their attention and is easy to generalize to a verbal marker once the mark/reward cycle is understood IMO.

Anyway this is how charging the clicker works with me. Click; drop treat. as pup swallows click drop treat over and over again until treats are gone. Other than opening my fingers slightly to drop the treat; I'm pretty still. I don't know if this is right or wrong but it has worked for me and you know the old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it

On the whole I don't leave a lot of time between the mark and reward even during training. I keep the two separate but I don't pause. When building duration of a behavior I pause between the command and the marker but it never occurred to me to pause between the marker and reward....one leads to the other...but in reading this post I'm wondering if I should be mixing it up.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I start with almost no pause at all. In fact, although I might get some flak for this, I do the very first few with the reward already in my hand (not visible to the dog) so I am not fumbling for it or taking a long time to hand it over.

I tried this a few minutes ago, just putting four tiny pieces of a liver treat in each hand. I balled up my fists with the treats inside and alternated which hand I gave her a treat from. It seems like it will work best for me as far as quickly giving the reward after the mark in the beginning.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I'm a huge fan of the Leerburg snap-open bait bag* and use it all the time, but at first I don't even want to take the few seconds I need to get the reward out of the open bag.

I've gotta invest in a bait bag. I used a little container I had behind my back but I was pretty slow/clumsy when it came to reaching back to grab a treat out of it. I think one of the Leerburg training vests would be ideal so I'm working on that as a birthday present. In the meantime, I've been looking at getting one of the 3 pocket training aprons though - do you know the pros/cons to using one of those? Are they more or less convenient than the snap open bait bag?

 Quote: connie sutherland

Have you considered using a clicker?

 Quote: sheila buckley

I like starting with a clicker, it is a different noise and gets their attention and is easy to generalize to a verbal marker once the mark/reward cycle is understood IMO.

Okay I have to admit: I could relate to Ed when he mentioned in the marker training podcast that he used to dislike marker training - I was the same way... and then there was Leerburg, haha. I had an inaccurate view of what it meant to marker train because previously, my only experience with it was with trainers who believed that dogs should never be given corrections. I now see the benefits of using this training system (thanks to Leerburg). As such, I am still somewhat reluctant to use the clicker for a couple of reasons: one, I'm partial to the verbal mark and two, I'm a bit clumsy when it comes to trying to handle multiple things so I'm also not sure how well that would work out. That being said...I haven't completely ruled out the idea of starting with the clicker.

 Quote: sheila buckley

Anyway this is how charging the clicker works with me. Click; drop treat. as pup swallows click drop treat over and over again until treats are gone.

Does this create a "vacuum" so to speak? A dog that will get distracted looking to see if any treats have been dropped on the ground when you're training? Or do your dogs seem to stay focused on you pretty nicely? Btw, yes, it is fun! I'm looking forward to the mark being charged so I can start to really use it.

Thank you both for the additional input! I'm going to take a step back and try some of these things and I should get a better result! I will most definitely let you know how it's going.

Edited by Jasmine Dillon (06/17/2009 02:20 PM)
Edit reason: Fixed a grammar error

Sheila, I eventually randomize the time lag between marker and reward because in real life (training on the field) it's gonna happen, sooner or later, that the marker cannot be 1 second before the reward. I am with you that when charging it, I want the association to be clear as day and quick.

I don't drop the reward because I have bad aim so it hits the ground and I want focus on me and not on the ground. I already have Hoover-dogs who inspect the ground very thoroughly at any spot where food might have briefly touched the ground and left a molecule of smell. But that is strictly my own thing, with these particular dogs.

Jasmine, I would encourage you to practice neutral production of rewards as well as handling a clicker (if you decide to) in front of a mirror. You will be amazed at how much telegraphing you do if you are anything like me. It really cleaned up my delivery.

I haven't tried the apron yet, but I imagine it's great too.

FYI, the bait bag can be snapped in an open position and can be worn behind, to the side, etc. It has a separate compartment, too, for your keys or poop baggy or whatever. I will probably always use it because of the ease of just tossing the whole thing into the 'fridge (making cheese and bits of meat easy for mixed bags with the Simon & Huey's and Grizzly-Nu, etc.), but I might want both.

 Quote: jasmine dillon

 Quote: sheila buckley

Anyway this is how charging the clicker works with me. Click; drop treat. as pup swallows click drop treat over and over again until treats are gone.

Does this create a "vacuum" so to speak? A dog that will get distracted looking to see if any treats have been dropped on the ground when you're training?

It has not created a problem with the training because there isn't enough time between the click and reward delivery to continue to look for food. I drop opposed to hand feed because LOL! to say it nicely: grace in motion would never be used to describe me. By the time I could get the food out of my hand to a small pup minutes would elapse and I think my body motion would become the focus. I have hand fed for larger dogs whose noses are at my hand level. When charging I keep the treats in my hand for the fastest delivery but gradually switch to a bait bag or table beside me etc as the dog and I become more adept and we have moved on to training.

What I like is how easy it is to step back and retrain something you don't get right the first time. Doesn't say much for my training ability but it has created a lot of trust and easy communication between us which has turned into a wonderful relationship. That was my goal as a dog owner; so I'm good with that but for the more adventurous the sky's the limit. Definitely keep us updated. That 1st light bulb moment is awesome!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Sheila, I eventually randomize the time lag between marker and reward because in real life (training on the field) it's gonna happen, sooner or later, that the marker cannot be 1 second before the reward.

LOL! On the field, if the reward follows the marker in the same day I'm having a stellar training exercise

Well tonight a little something happened so I figured I would post a short update -
I was chatting with my Aunt in the office with Keiko standing by my side. I happened to say "yes" in response to something my Aunt said and Keiko immediately snapped her head up at me! As soon as she looked at me I knew she was expecting a reward but of course I had none anywhere nearby so I instead went crazy with praise. Immediately afterwards I charged the mark with liver treats about 8 times just to reinforce the idea that the word yes DOES mean a GOOD reward is coming!

I thought I would share because I interpreted this as a sign of recognition of the mark and was rather excited.

I haven't yet watched myself in the mirror (perhaps I will do that after this post) but I have taken extra care to be sure that the word "yes" and the reward are two distinct actions. I feel much more natural when I do a little charging session so I think I'm getting smoother at handling the treats and everything.