and it worked great! Kodee hates our cat (she is outdoors only, and I swear, she lives to taunt him through the window). Anyway, we were outside playing, and Kodee was off-leash, wearing his e-collar. I have Ed's DVD on electric collars, and followed the training and have used an e-collar w/Kodee for over a year now (he's two). Anyway, today the cat made an appearance, not realizing Kodee was nearby. He took after her like a shot, and got her cornered (I think) in the barn. I was probably about 50 yards away, so I couldn't see what was going on in there. I immediately called him to me. He ignored me, so I yelled him "no" and gave him a stim. The first time didn't work. I turned the stim up slightly, and repeated the "no", and another stim, and he came running back immediately. I was actually floored. He comes when called 100% when we're outside playing (under moderate distraction), but we hadn't had a distraction that high yet (believe me, that distraction was VERY high for Kodee).

I'll say it again - I'm so glad I found this site! I can't say how happy I am that he can run "loose" on our unfenced 15 acres (with supervision), and have a reliable recall! (My cat's glad, too).

Lucky cat! He must have been testing out his 9 lives! Glad Kodee decided that the cat might need that life another time! :-)G

I don't want to burst the bubble, but until Kobee recalls without the stimm or stops in midstride on orders it sounds more like avoidance training to me.
Shrug, it's an accepted form of dog training for absolutely undesirable behavior.
But you should be aware of what is being accomplished.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

I don't want to burst the bubble, but until Kobee recalls without the stimm or stops in midstride on orders it sounds more like avoidance training to me.
Shrug, it's an accepted form of dog training for absolutely undesirable behavior.
But you should be aware of what is being accomplished.

Randy

Randy,

Can you explain this a bit more fully? I'm experiencing the same type of thing with Falcon and would like to know what you mean and what you would advise. Thanks.

Well, it sounds like the dog didn't come back because of the recall so much as it came back because the stim level was raised. The dog went into avoidance at a certain level of stim, and that caused the compliant behaviour, not the command.

At least that's how I read/understand what happened.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

Well, it sounds like the dog didn't come back because of the recall so much as it came back because the stim level was raised. The dog went into avoidance at a certain level of stim, and that caused the compliant behaviour, not the command.

At least that's how I read/understand what happened.

Okay - that makes sense, but how is this corrected? In watching the ecollar video, it shows the dog being stimed when not returning on a recall, and then the stim is stopped the moment the dog turns to come back. Is this training "avoidance training" or am I misunderstanding?

I haven't seen the video, sorry....can't say what the dog was doing in it.

Babara,
It's been awhile since I've seen the video so I don't remember all of it real clearly. If you're referring to the portion on the recall I think you've got it confused with another aspect (that hopefully many don't use any longer) of ecollar work called escape training. At least that's how I'm reading you.

On the recall section Ed is using the ecollar just as one would a leash or a long line. If the dog were on a leash and he disobeyed a command, what would you do?
You use the ecollar the same way. Think of it as a really long tether. Give a known command, the dog disobeys, correct just as you would with a leash only with a nick.

Myself, I only use the so called continuous to knock the dog out of drive, she hears or sees nothing but one thing when she's that zoned.
If I were asked how Dogtra could improve their product it would be to allow the two different levels set independent of each other. One level for the nick and another for the continuous.
Note to Dogtra, if you use my idea.....You owe me one of the collars and royalties.

 Quote: randy allen

I don't want to burst the bubble, but until Kobee recalls without the stimm or stops in midstride on orders it sounds more like avoidance training to me.
Shrug, it's an accepted form of dog training for absolutely undesirable behavior.
But you should be aware of what is being accomplished.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

I'm definitely not talking about the portion of the video which shows the "old fashioned" way of training with an ecollar where the dog is subjected to high levels of stim until he is healing, etc.. and then the stim is stopped.

The example you give as using the ecollar as a long leash is good... you give a known command, the dog does not respond so you then nick at the lowest level needed. Where I am confused is whether this is "avoidance training" as you reffered to above. If so, what makes it undesireable and what is "really being accomplised"? I guess I'm not clear on what makes the situation with Kodee negative (in regard to how the collar was used)as compared to how the collar should have been used in this situation? I'm sure the light bulb will go on here shortly...

I tried not (unsuccessfully it seems) to imply avoidence training is necessarily undesirable. It has it's place in some peoples situations and their dogs.

As Jennifer said, the dog is facing or in the act of attaining it's objective until the stim level gets to the point the dog can't stand the heat any more.
For Kori, if she wanted to work on Kobee to forget about the cat completely (avoidance), I'd advise her to nick the dog every time the dog even looked at the cat. I think Ed shows that in the tape with one dog on heel and another dog close by. It doesn't require high levels, just consistancy.
I feel that approach is much more effective and humane then just keep amping the juice on a loose dog until the dog finally puts two and two together. But it's still avoidance training.

Here's where I got the wires crossed in your previous post: quote
"In watching the ecollar video, it shows the dog being stimed when not returning on a recall, and then the stim is stopped the moment the dog turns to come back. Is this training "avoidance training" or am I misunderstanding?"
Especially the part, 'and then the stim is stopped the moment the dog turns to come back.'
That correctly describes escape training.