Do dogs think and can they reason? I recently got into a disscusion with an assoicated/trainer, he made mention that dogs don't think or reason they only apply taught responces to instinctive actions.

I spoke with my wife breifly on this and she thinks he is full of it. She believes that her dogs reason and think on the level of 3 yr. old child. She also beleive that her dog can carry on a conversation. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We disagree here, I think she gives the dog too much credit, stating that her dog thinks like a human (he was an inside dog). In my mind he is hard headed and did what he wanted to do most times. Spoiled ass dog would turn down a steak bone that didn't have enough meat on it. :rolleyes:

IMO dogs do reason and put together thoughts into ideas. To support my idea, Imagine the difficulty of two people of different languages and how they work out what the other means using single words, hand signals and eye gestures. The dog dones the same. Thats reasoning, which take thought, thinking and comparing.

This is what make them so trainable. This came up because, while in his back yard. I gave a command to, my two dogs to go get in the jeep.

He told me that I was asking too much from them smiling like, the vehicle out of sight they don't know what you mean, boy you got a lot to learn.

My dogs in a down got up ran to the front yard the jeep's tail gate was up and they jumped in. We had followed them, with me listening him say that they would go to the front and wait or be running around confused.

He did not know that while hiking and lost or preparing for a shopping trip we do this all the time, from my back yard. He stopped amazed and said boy that was a neat trick. Maybe just something he never tried.

I feel they understand but, I also think that maybe this only verifies what he states that its a trained responce to the instinctive idea (we are preparing to leave).

I'd like to get your thoughts because I'd like to get a solid idea on this, to have personal closure on this topic. I think there are books that support both views. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don, I want to think my dogs can all reason. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Then I have to be honest with myself and know that they are responding to our actions.

Sure they amaze us and our friends with some of the things they do. I think it's all conditioning that causes them to respond to different scenerios.

Example: Put on your shoes- dog knows you are going outside. The dog associates putting on your shoes with going outside. Just how many times have they seen us do this. Far too many!!

I believe a lot of bad habits that K-9's aquire are done so without the owner realizing it. we may even create some. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> How many times do you have to show the sit before they can do it. Not that many times.

Now I do beleive they can think to a limited degree of understanding. If not then how do we explain the actions of so many K-9's that have never had any training.

The most important thing I've noticed in every dog I have ever owned is the DESIRE to PLEASE me anytime and everytime.
"What more could we ask for from these NOBLE creatures" I think nothing!!

Don't know if I answereed your question or not, my dog thought I was confussed!!!lol :rolleyes:

my jaw would've hit the ground when he said that a dog doesn't comprehend 'get in the jeep' because the jeep is not in sight !

in my opinion, their response was not intellectual reasoning ...it was habit. through previous successful repetitions, your dogs had a clear vision of what to do when you said 'get in the jeep'. a mental flood of images comes in their mind. repetitions build understanding and confidence , so yes your dogs can connect the dots. however, the dog's potential goes way beyond that.

the base of the relationship is built on building desirable habits . then upping the challenges when your dog is ready and never underestimating the dog or setting it up to fail.

lots of inadvertent training can occur, but perhaps the worst case is when the person is not recognizing the dogs readiness for challenges, and the dog settles into being exactly what you expect.. just a dog. Expect more, get more.

i have provided a link to accounts of Chuck Eisenmann's work with his shepherds. He was the owner of the dogs who starred in the Littlest Hobo. the info on his dogs is kind of midway down the page, and you will see lots of conditioned responses there but also, understanding beyond.

im just providing the link as a topic for discussion on training, not breeding.

http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm

They don't think? I've seen dogs in the process of figuring out a problem (not calculus, mind you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) and it would appear to me that they do think to some extent.

I am not sure I would equate "problem solving" with "thinking". It is going to depend on how broad your definition of "thinking" is. Animals with a much lower level of "intellegence" can problem solve, but I am not sure that is "thinking".

Well, I just want to ask a question regarding the subject. My female dobe drinks out of the toilet in the basement. Sometimes the water get tool low so she stars circling around it cueing me to flush the toilet. Well after a couple of times she figured out that if she plays around with the nozzle it will flush. From that time she fluszhes the toilet herself. At the same time she will not drink out of our toilets upstairs. Was that problem solving or conditioning?

Also, she knows she is not allowed on the couch. I have a baby gate that blocks the entrance to the living room, and when I go out she doesn't have access to it. Or so I thought. When I come home she is waiting for me on the other side of the gate, meanwhile there is a warm spot on the couch and its full of dog hair. Once again, is it thinking or conditioning?

Conditioning and/or lack of training.

Richard, do you believe that the ability to "think" and "reason" is only present in humans?

YOu would have to define the terms for me to answer that. My immediate reaction, is no they do not think or reason in the manner that most people define the terms. Do they engage in goal directed behavior, yes. Make multiple attempts until they find something that is sucessful, yes. "Reason" things out like a person would, no. In some cases I think there may even be a bit of evaluation of action against consequences, but I don't believe that is a process the way a person would do the same thing.

Richard, thanks for sharing your "thoughts." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> The reason I ask is I've seen a number of shows on the Discovery channel, Animal Planet, etc. where gorillas and dolphins have been tested. The results would seem to indicate there is some independent "thought" occuring.

One definition for "think" that I found in an on-line dictionary states "To formulate in the mind". When a dog sizes up a possible big jump you can see the look in their eyes and if they are a little hesitant it would seem to me that the dog is judging or evaluating whether or not he can make the jump. Based on the definition in the dictionary and using this example I believe a dog does indeed think.