Have an ACD mix who is pretty strong minded and beginning to "hump" pillows.
This dog needs no testosterone.
When I went to vet school, 6 mos was the standard, but am considering doing it now.
Comments on early neutering would be appreciated.

How old is he?

Hi Betty,
How old is your pup now?

The neuter topic has been covered many times here - a search for "neutering" should pull up lots of discussion. That said, the overwhelming consensus on this particular board is to wait until at least 2 years to neuter a male, if at all. That opinion comes from multiple reasoning: spaying and neutering before a dog is finished growing (anywhere from 1-2, even 3 years, depending on breed) deprives the body of hormones critical to the maturation of the brain and development of anatomy. In males, testosterone signals the building of muscle, deepening of the chest, and very importantly, the correct closure of growth plates in the leg bones (dogs neutered young often end up slightly taller for this reason, and can potentially suffer orthopedic issues because of it). There are cancer risk debates as well, plus the very honest idea that nearly every behavioral "problem" associated with intact males (humping, marking, roaming, aggression) is an issue of training and containment and can either be eliminated or carefully controlled by a dedicated and responsible owner.

I'm not encouraging you NOT to neuter your boy - (I neutered my boy when he was 21 months old), just to consider some very real and lasting health effects that may be avoided if you wait until he's mature first. *And of course, if you think there is ANY chance that you may not be able to contain him completely enough to prevent him from siring his own pups, by all means neuter as soon as he's sexually mature... but I would hope that's not an issue.

Searching the posts here, you'll likely find lots of good links to spay/neuter studies, but here are a few to get you started:

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I'm pretty sure there are threads on discouraging humping as well - which is surprisingly not limited to hormone-crazed intact males.

Best of luck,
~Natalya

*None of the above was meant to be presumptuous in any way, I did note you are a retired DVM and surely have your own knowledge of the subject from a medical standpoint... I'm just long winded.

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

Hi Betty,
How old is your pup now?

If this is the same 16 week old pup that you posted another topic about, IMO that's too young to neuter yet... he's still got months of growing yet before he even reaches the bare minimum 6-month mark...

~Natalya

Here is a pretty good one with lots of additional links.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=167&Number=247419&Searchpage=1&Main=23845&Words=spay+neuter&topic=0&Search=true#Post247419

In the matrix of all decisions related to dogs as in when to neuter, what to feed, etc there is always the question of benefit vs risk.

In the future I have decided based upon what I have read, prior dogs, and other observations that despite the risk of bone cancer, joint issues, etc my boys will be neutered young. It's not that I don't love my boys and don't want long happy lives with them but I prefer not to deal with intact male behavior in mature housepets. A working dog is another story with a different goal set to consider.

So I guess my answer to you is to make a decision knowing what the risks are vs. the benefits. In the links on the board you'll find a great many studies outlining the risks associated with neutering young. Risks are not guarantees though, none of us can look into a crystal ball and say for certain that you will have a specific problem in your if you took your puppy out tomorrow to have him neutered. Millions of animals a neutered in shelters yearly as young as 8 weeks old but of those how many will develop crippling hip and elbow issues by 2, cancer by 10? Wouldn't we hear more about it if there was really such an epidemic?

Just kind of playing devil's advocate here...

 Quote: melissa thom

In the future I have decided based upon what I have read, prior dogs, and other observations that despite the risk of bone cancer, joint issues, etc my boys will be neutered young.

Would you do the same for a large breed male? How young is young?

 Quote: melissa thom

Wouldn't we hear more about it if there was really such an epidemic?

Maybe, maybe not. How many people make the connection? Would many vets discuss it with their patients if they did? I've always felt like a lot of the push for early neutering is simply to reduce the number of sexually mature adults in irresponsible pet owners' hands (people who don't contain the dog, etc). There are of course a small number of health benefits but to me it has always seemed that fact and the incorrect idea that "neutering solves everything" are added as "benefits" that convince pet owners to go ahead and get it done.

 Quote: jasmine dillon

Just kind of playing devil's advocate here...

 Quote: melissa thom

In the future I have decided based upon what I have read, prior dogs, and other observations that despite the risk of bone cancer, joint issues, etc my boys will be neutered young.

Would you do the same for a large breed male? How young is young?

 Quote: melissa thom

Wouldn't we hear more about it if there was really such an epidemic?

Maybe, maybe not. How many people make the connection? Would many vets discuss it with their patients if they did? I've always felt like a lot of the push for early neutering is simply to reduce the number of sexually mature adults in irresponsible pet owners' hands (people who don't contain the dog, etc). There are of course a small number of health benefits but to me it has always seemed that fact and the incorrect idea that "neutering solves everything" are added as "benefits" that convince pet owners to go ahead and get it done.

Without getting overly self righteous yes, I would for a large dog house pet, if I were to acquire one again. My first dog was a very large breed dog that we neutered at 10 months and 95lbs of muscle and hormones. Although Sam was a fantastic dog who forgave me of my many errors, watched over my mother when I had to leave for college, and was everything a little girl could want in a big hairy mutt I regret not neutering him before he got interested in the ladies, because even after neutering he was a wanderlust fiend who tried to make a break for it every chance he got. Total PITA, leash smart, escape artist which meant he could NEVER be trusted off lead. Now can I say for certain neutering would have prevent the wanderlust? No, of course I can't go back in time but it would have given him no instinct to start a bad habit we never did quite figure out how to break. Remember... first dog. I know a little better now but what should the learning curve be for the pet owner?

I suggest for male pet papillons by 4 months old or 3lbs. While papillons are a small breed that does mature physically sooner than large breed dogs the main thing I am trying to avoid is housemarking. House soiling is the #1 reason these dogs are given up to rescues and one housemarker a household will make. These dogs are first and foremost companions and in my eyes they need to be able to have that as their job. I cannot express how much it breaks me to see how few of these dogs are able to function in this role and be intact males or males who were fixed after this problem began. Belly bands, kennel dogs, or housed in rabbit cages is no way to live where it comes to companion animals. It's possible that part of the reason it's such an issue is how toy breeds are raised, and I do grant you that some are done with a complete lack of common sense. I don't have a big enough observation pool to establish a commonality but for now I suggest early neuters. There are no true fire ways to cure housemarking after it starts other than crate and tether. 12-20 years is a long time to ask an owner to do this.

You're absolutely right neutering doesn't solve everything, but it can help some common problems from likely occurring. After all the tales of dogs who want to roam, dogs who housemark, hump incessantly, etc in my eyes is ok to leave to those who have the training saavy to work by it. Not every dog is for everyone after all and if neutering makes a dog a little more livable for that owner who am I to deny it? I just want an informed decision to be made.

Life is hard, there is an opportunity cost to everything. It's just a matter of being aware of what the true costs are.

Working dogs I agree are another ball of wax. I'm mainly concerned in this post with the average pet, living at the average home.

Not only does neutering not solve everything, it doesn't solve MOST things it's supposedly done to eliminate.

IMHO, if you truly care about the best health for your dog, and not your inconvenience, neutering should ONLY BE DONE TO PREVENT UNWANTED LITTERS. Period. That's the only thing it's 100% effective against.

And to Melissa specifically, no. There IS an epidemic of this stuff. But no one attributes it to this widespread "whack everything off ASAP regardless of health ramifications, because, ultimately, dogs are here to serve us and to hell with whatever problems we may cause them in our unending quest for the perfect robotic fluffy toy."

Melissa, don't you think that this early neutering (or neutering, period) is contributing to the widespread surge of these problems that we didn't see 40 years ago? And the vets are the ones pushing it; are they going to tell everyone what it's causing? Hell no. Think of all the lost revenue!

For anyone reading this who's new, my opinion is based upon owing SEVERAL intact males simultaneously- Pit Bulls, GSDs (one of them an escape artist extraordinaire), and even a Chihuahua (neutered for cryptorchidism at 5yrs old). If you can't handle a WHOLE animal, and are neutering for convenience or "you don't want to deal with_______" get a goldfish.

Gee, I'm fiesty this morning.

Good morning Jenni,

I understand your points but we have created dogs and the breed spectrum for our convenience. Maybe it's the lack of sleep speaking but we have altered by breeding and by chopping "stuff" off of dogs for years, long before the hd debate began . It's not just for their health and I know it's a controversial subject.

To answer your question No, I don't look to every change for the negative consequence that has happened the last 50 years and point to diet, point to the vet system, or point to neutering as the cause of all evil. I have pointed at a willingness of the general society to pay for this care, diagnose every little ache and bump, be more willing to put up with problematic behavior, and the kennel clubs allowing a ever shrinking group to exist in gene pool as a source of these problems along with encouraging breeding to extremes of form. Arguably we have changed in our relationship to the dog as much as they have changed physically. It's not a statement of good or bad, it just is.

Why don't I buy into the grand conspiracy? Well because after talking to my vet who has 50 years of experience it just doesn't compute that my vet or my past vets are part of some conspiracy to hurt my dog and the dogs that will come. He's a nice guy, with a lot of horse sense, has a fair amount of observational skills. Are there money grubbing vets and is there a money grubbing vet system? Absolutely. Just like that system exists everywhere else in society from medical to car dealers. It's the ability to advocate and educate yourself that makes the difference between informed and uninformed patsy.

Yes, I am ok with neutering dogs just as I'm ok with gelding horses, steers, neutering cats, etc as a behavior preventer/ modifier. There isn't a guarantee that your dog will have these behaviors not show up but there is a likelihood. Just like you can neuter your cat and it won't guarantee he won't routinely spray your couch but it does help with the likelihood of it occurring. There are no guarantees in life, or animals. You just stack cards in your favor.

As far as HD in my eyes it's a matter of breeding and reporting. Anyone breeding dogs will have variation resulting in a dog with HD eventually. Only difference is now that we test for it, diagnose it, as opposed to shooting the dog that went lame, digging a hole, and moving on as was common place 50 years ago.OFFA after all has only been around 40 years, who knows what the percentages were before that.

I see this "epidemic" as both self created and statistically unprovable as an increase because the numbers of dogs have increased and the number of reportings have skyrocketed. Am I wrong? Possibly, I don't claim to have all the answers. Is my view on the history of this stuff skewed a little by my conversations with certain people? Absolutely. As always the jury is out until more compelling information is available but until then I operate under the best information I read and find to be reliable.

As far as creating dogs that are fluffy little robots there is much fluffy and little about my boys but they are certainly unrobotic in nature despite missing some gonads.