What do you think would happen if you trained a patrol canine from start to finish, using only the agitation muzzle?

I know that it is best to use a little bit of everything and keep it balanced, but hypothetically speaking, isn't it possible to finish without any sleeve work?

I've heard that studies have shown that the dogs are still "biting" inside the muzzle, so do you think that he would bite if the muzzle was removed, or do you think that suit work is a must?

FYI - we use traditional methods in our unit. A little bit of everything, mostly centered on muzzle and bite suit work. All of us have physical apprehensions and have had no problems.

 Quote: bj delos santos

What do you think would happen if you trained a patrol canine from start to finish, using only the agitation muzzle?

I know that it is best to use a little bit of everything and keep it balanced, but hypothetically speaking, isn't it possible to finish without any sleeve work?

I've heard that studies have shown that the dogs are still "biting" inside the muzzle, so do you think that he would bite if the muzzle was removed, or do you think that suit work is a must?

FYI - we use traditional methods in our unit. A little bit of everything, mostly centered on muzzle and bite suit work. All of us have physical apprehensions and have had no problems.

Deploying a PSD would not be the time to find out it didn't work. As it is, using sleeves, suits, hidden sleeves, muzzle and most traditional methods, that first time, faced with engaging an actual subject, it's never a "given" the dog will react as trained.

The street is not the place to try a hypothesis.

DFrost

No, no, no - David --- I am TOTALLY with you here. That's why I mentioned that we still did do a little bit of everything in our real training. I wouldn't roll the dice and test any of my crazy theories on the road. I'm just crazy, not a dummy

That being said, I was thinking about running an experiment (NOT with a patrol dog - just a test pup on the side). I want to train one from start to finish in muzzle, then see what he does the first time on a bite suit. Just to settle my curiousity.

As far as a real patrol dog goes, I think that we must do our best to train every single task that the dog must complete - including the physical "athletic" skills needed to bite and hold. So, even if they would engage in muzzle alone, I think it is important to train, maintain the actual physical skills - so suit work is a must.

This is just my mind working on OT.

There is a saying in some schools in Germany, that all you need to train a police dog is a muzzle, a chain collar and a leash.

Frankly, I have not done it, but can see it wouldn't be a problem. In fact there could be benefits. What I have done is converted sport dogs to police work using nothing but muzzle and civil work. I am in that process with my new dog right now. Of course the dog was educated in grip development prior to obtaining the dog.

When raising a young dog I tend to use a variety of techniques when I know it is destined for the street and intro the muzzle slowly as the dog gets confident in its work.

Interesting saying, Kevin.

I have always wondered what would happen if the dog never was trained to grip, but was trained to dominate via agitation muzzle work. I've heard that the dog is still "biting" inside the muzzle, or at least trying to. I've seen that muzzle work teaches the dog to use whatever he can to dominate and earn the ground, so I thought that they might actually be more confident in the engagement when the muzzle is off because they would already be conditioned to win the fight, but this time he would feel unrestricted.

I've always been a big believer in muzzle work, and have always centered our training around it (while still doing suit work, but most scenarios are in muzzle). Two patrol dogs ago, my K-9 broke one of his canine teeth off, so I did almost 100% muzzle in order to save as much of his grip as possible. He actually got better on the road with one major exception - the typewriter.

That's why I think that suit work is still a must for us. It seems more appropriate for the "best case scenario" of just one grip and just 4 holes.

I'm still curious though, would a dog trained in muzzle only - no grips - put teeth into tactics when things got real? I am going to try to find a test dummy dog that has never seen a sleeve or suit (I know that's going to be hard enough) run him through in muzzle only, then put him on a suited up decoy and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, then I'll add in grip training.

Curiousity killed that cat, right?

I think that what you will get is what the dog brings to the table. If the dog is naturally high in fighting instinct and this is the primary reason the dog engages bad guys you will get a single grip. If the dog is doing it with a portion of self defense then you will get typewriter, if the dog works primarily in prey it will depend on the actions of the bad guy. Of course most dogs are some combination and thus grip development has been in vogue for a long long time.

I'm very interested to see.

Here is every K-9 trainer's magic question - what do you think is the best "street proofing" technique? Again, we do everything: sleeve, suit, hidden sleeve, muzzle, seatbelt, etc., but what do you think is best (stand alone).

I used to think it was the hidden sleeve, but then I thought about how the decoy always had to present an arm, even if just a little bit, to keep from getting bit. Plus, the scenarios always had to end up with the decoy "presented" in a certain manner just for safety. But, the dog would never know the difference until he actally got to the decoy (if the scenario was planned right).

Then I switched to thinking it was the muzzle, if trained correctly. But then I thought, no matter how careful you are, the dog still knows that something is different, plus he knew he was "unarmed"...and, the fights became a little unrealistic because the dog had to keep reengaging (hitting) over and over until the decoy went down or fled. I think that this may have been what caused the typewriter with my other patrol dog. It may have been medical (pain because of the tooth), but he was still a one gripper on the suit, even after. I just minimized the number of bites he had in training to try to preserve what was left. The typewriter effect was only present on the real deal.

The scenarios in muzzle are just about as realistic as it can get, minus the muzzle of course. Plus, I think that by conditioning the dog to win without his teeth, when the real deal comes, he'll be even more confident knowing he gets to bring his chompers in on this one. I think that good dogs can do real muzzle fights and suit work. Lesser dogs can usually do suit work, but are lacking when it comes to the muzzle. I think that the muzzle might be a little more accurate in guessing if the dog will really engage (it always is a guess for the first, no matter what you do).

Again, I have to repeat - I do ALL methods. This post is just about theory.