When you train with markers (as in Ed and Michael Ellis' DVDs), how many different behaviors should you teach at one time. I don't mean in one training session, but more like the whole day or week. For instance, if I am working on engagement out in public places, can I also be teaching 'drop' with an object at home, and practicing going back and forth between sit, down, and stand all in the same day, but at different times?

I ask this, because he seems to get confused and he offers a lot of the behaviors he has already learned (i.e. I'll want him to stand from a down, and he'll play dead, roll over, give me 5, etc., OR if we worked on engagement/watch me in the morning then in the afternoon when we train he'll think I want him to 'watch me' when I want him to do something else). I think he's so motivated by the food, that he just does a bunch of different stuff to get it.

So I guess I'm asking what your training sessions look like in a day or week. Am I making any sense?!

You are making sense, Lori, but I don't know how to answer your question.

I listened to woman at a training seminar cry as she described the behaviors her dog would offer trying to be "right". Because of this, that woman found free-shaping clicker training cruel. I've never forgotten that, but wonder if her experience is shared by people who really understand marker training. (I do not claim to be one!)

In free shaping, have you tried kind of setting the dog up for what you want? Remember that channel that was created for the dog to walk backwards, and limiting the area for another behavior so far fewer choices are possible? And doing "watch me" in a very small distraction-free area? Kind of honing down the probable responses?

Are you doing any targeting or luring? Targeting (as opposed to free-shaping) starts the focus on the behavior wanted and narrows the response field/boundaries.


Are you careful not to reward an unasked-for behavior? Really careful? I found myself doing amazingly stupid stuff for at first, such as saying about an offered behavior, "Oh, good sit, but nope" (or the equivalent). Even a quick positive word for an unasked-for behavior increases those random offerings (Gail Fisher calls that the "whirling dervish syndrome") that you don't want.

It's probably me. LOL It's good to look at how an unasked-for behavior that doesn't extinguish is being rewarded.

Hi Lori,

Confusion definitely is the enemy of learning.

I think how many things you work on is up to you and your dog. If what you're doing is causing you both confusion, it's too much. If you're both rocking and having fun, it's just right.

How many things can change over time, as you get the hang of what you're doing and how you're doing it, too.

I've always done much better with lure/reward than free shaping. Both are used in marker training (confused yet? ). I'd play around with free shaping, but with my GSD, she didn't have much patience for it and would just scream at me, "just show me what you want, damn it already!" So, for any serious training, it would tend to be lure/reward, and/or targeting, as Connie mentioned.

It's normal for a dog to offer up previously learned behaviors when you're free shaping, and to run thru a whole repetoire. It takes a great deal of patience to wait for what you're looking for, and then, you have to reward incremental progress towards the finished behavior. For example, you want your dog to step into a box with her right front foot. Well, even turning towards the box gets a "click" or "yes" in this situation, in the beginning. So, if you're trying to go from a sit to a down or vice versa, and you're free shaping, and you're expecting to see the alternate behavior before you mark...good luck with that.

Also, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about comparing what you and your dog are doing to what others are doing, but rather, finding your own comfort zone. It wasn't uncommon for me and my girl to do hour long training sessions, with lots of different behaviors over that time, day in and out. But, she was incredibly intense, loved to train, and so did I. Even so, you don't want to repeat the same behavior too many times...it gets boring for both of you really quick. Several repetitions at whatever level you are at, then move on to something else, or quit and do something else later.

Hope I didn't add to your confusion.
leih

I can't offer any specifics, but I will suggest the idea that, if you're not on any deadline or timeframe you have to keep up with, why not slow it down a little? Learning is a lifelong process anyway, and I certainly know how anxious we get for our dogs to learn everything (I'm there now) but we may have to step back and look at the big picture.

JMO ;-)

 Quote: leih merigian

... I've always done much better with lure/reward than free shaping.

Me too.

Interesting topic, and I'm hoping that folks will offer more about both.

Would someone give me a definition of free shaping, please?

What I consider shaping is something much different than what I'm garnering in this thread.

http://www.clickertraining.tv/product.html?item=FREE-29

Here's an example of shaping with a clicker.

IMO shaping is not for every dog. I have two here who will simply shut down and disengage after exhausting their string on known commands in what I can just assume is deciding that this is a game I can't win. On the flip side my labrador excels at shaping and will offer up some really random wild and crazy stuff in pursuit of rewards. You have to be careful though because you may go home with a black eye in her efforts.

 Quote: randy allen

Would someone give me a definition of free shaping, please?

What I consider shaping is something much different than what I'm garnering in this thread.

I'd call it free shaping if we're selecting voluntary actions and marking them (as opposed to starting with a prompt or lure).

An example of targeting might be the nose-touch (to your hand). The nose-touch starts a whole bunch of asked-for behaviors.

I think I shape everything by asking for a little better or faster etc... with each rep or session. I don't think I free shape anything.

For myself, I just think it would be confusing if I'm saying no when they offer the wrong behavior but yes for something else when they offer it. Maybe its just a question of having to be one way or the other?