Recently my 1 year old Malinois has been very weird when he recieves an e-collar correction. We've used the e-collar since he was about 8 months or so, and he always responded really fast and positively to the corrections.
Lately, he almost shakes it off, and he seems to try to run away from it as well.
Usually if he does this, I increase the intensity of the correction, but it does nothing. He just keeps shaking his head a little and keeps doing what he is doing, especially if he is sniffing something out hiking, or if he is distracted by another dog off in the distance. I have gone up to a level 7 (out of 8) correcion with no response.
Other times, he is very sensitive. He will yelp and respond immediately to a level 2 correction.
I do not feel I am over correcting him. I used them sparingly, and I try to be consistent.
I'm wondering if maybe he is too focused to realize the correction? Maybe someone has some better imput in this situation...

Karissa,

I have not used an e-collar so I can't advise you there. What is he getting corrected for? Is he ignoring commands or is it something he is doing behaviorally?

From the description you give; it sounds to me like he maybe isn't 100% sure of the command; not with distractions anyways. Have you tried stepping back to the point where he does respond appropriately to the command and start to retrain from there adding distractions slowly?

UGH! Teenagers!

Karissa, this seems to be very similar to the issue you had before

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=292004&Searchpage=1&Main=27199&Words=+Karissa+Tepp&topic=0&Search=true#Post292004. How did that work out?

 Quote: Karissa Tepp

Do you think he is still too young to completely remove food rewards? He is VERY high drive when food is present, semi-high drive for a tug or just for praise, but sometimes when I don't have food, he does the commands very slowly and won't maintain eye contact.... I didn't want to keep him on food rewards too long, but does it sounds like I am expecting too much, too soon?

He can have a very high drive for the tug, but it's usual only after we've already done some training with food first. If I just use the tug straight from th beginning, he seems a little unfocused once he gets two or three good bites at it.

Do you still use food rewards? Tug only? Is your dog engaged with you when you are giving the command?

Hi Karissa:
By what method/means did you introduce the ecollar to your dog? What brand/model of ecollar are you using?

Also, it is not atypical for the level of stim required to "get the dog's attention" to change depending on the dog's level of drive/excitement at the time the stim is delivered. However, that may not be all that is going on here.

 Quote: Karissa Tepp

...sniffing something out hiking, or if he is distracted by another dog off in the distance...

- low level everyday distractions? I don't think a 7 out of 8 correction should be used for these. If a dog can't handle this level of distraction the correction is not an answer IMHO.

I do use e-collars and prong collars with my dogs.

He does know the commands though. The main command I've been having problems with is "stand." I've been going through it over and over and over... he does it 9 times in a row (with a little time in between each rep) and then the 10th time he just sits/lays there and stares at me. If I correct him for it, he gives a little yelp, and sometimes rolls over or circles and licks his lips. I know that is a sign of anxiety, but if I don't give a correction then he is going to think I'm not serious, right? And if I give a manual correction, he tries to run as soon as I lean down to grab the tab (or if I motion to pop him with a leash on).

I've tried to do it "the positive people's way" and just give a "nope," repeating the command...but it makes it worse because he then stops listening altogether and waits until I repeat the command and say nope a few times to do the command, if he feels like it...

I'm actually not exactly sure what is going on here. I've come to the point where I am probably going to retrain from the very beginning, but with using commands in a new language. I think it would benefit me the most because he has no assocciations to any of the new words yet. I have not yet begun to do this.


For those of you that have dogs trained in multiple languages, does it sound right that I would use one language in more formal situations, and leave the other (english) for non-formal things?

Thanks for you all being so patient with me.

 Quote: karissa tepp

He does know the commands though. The main command I've been having problems with is "stand." I've been going through it over and over and over... he does it 9 times in a row (with a little time in between each rep) and then the 10th time he just sits/lays there and stares at me. If I correct him for it, he gives a little yelp, and sometimes rolls over or circles and licks his lips.

Karissa, if he's done it 9 times (correctly, I am assuming) in a row, why are you concerned that he's not complying? Is he being rewarded for complying 9 times in a row?

Please forgive me for saying, but this sounds very tedious for the dog to be doing the same command over and over, especially if he is doing it correctly...perhaps this is why he is finally not complying.

 Quote: karissa tepp

He does know the commands though. The main command I've been having problems with is "stand." I've been going through it over and over and over... he does it 9 times in a row (with a little time in between each rep) and then the 10th time he just sits/lays there and stares at me.

Why so much repetition? Is he being rewarded in between for performing the correct behavior?

 Quote:

If I correct him for it, he gives a little yelp, and sometimes rolls over or circles and licks his lips. I know that is a sign of anxiety, but if I don't give a correction then he is going to think I'm not serious, right? And if I give a manual correction, he tries to run as soon as I lean down to grab the tab (or if I motion to pop him with a leash on).

I asked above and didn't get an answer to this question...How did you introduce him to the ecollar? A dog who responds in the way you're describing does not know how to "turn off" the stim by performing the correct behavior. At this point, he might know that you're "serious" about something, but it sounds like he has no clue what he's done wrong, nor how to correct it, regardless of whether you're using the ecollar or a leash correction.

A VERY important part of using corrections in training is to make sure the dog knows what the correction means - more specifically, he knows that by performing the correct behavior, he will be able to turn the correction off or avoid it in the future. If he doesn't know this, then you did not introduce corrections in the right way at the right time.

 Quote:

I'm actually not exactly sure what is going on here. I've come to the point where I am probably going to retrain from the very beginning, but with using commands in a new language. I think it would benefit me the most because he has no assocciations to any of the new words yet. I have not yet begun to do this.

I have a pretty good idea of what is going on here - you did not introduce corrections properly. As a result, the dog is stressed by the corrections. I agree with starting over. However, I think it is time to get one-on-one help from a qualified trainer who is also skilled in the use of ecollars. Any chance there is a sport club nearby with such a trainer?

 Quote:

For those of you that have dogs trained in multiple languages, does it sound right that I would use one language in more formal situations, and leave the other (english) for non-formal things?

Thanks for you all being so patient with me.

Personally, I would use the same word for the same behavior regardless of the "formality" of the situation. I know some folks who use different commands for a "formal" come - meaning the dog must come to their front and sit straight - and for a casual come - meaning the dog must just come back within the vicinity of the owner. However, those are different behaviors and associating different commands with them makes sense.

I agree with Lynne's assessment.

Karissa,
Are you familiar with marker training? How have you trained your dog to this point? Can you explain how you trained "Stand"? Also, how did you introduce distractions?

Going back to the beginning is never a bad idea but I think some adjustments to your training style might be beneficial to moving forward.

Any pictures? You can never get enough of a 1 year old Mal.

And Konnie's assessment!

I have/had been using the Michael Ellis system since I got him at 8 weeks of age. We did not implement the use of any correction until about 8 months. When I began using corrections, we started out with a plastic prong collar. As he got too big for the size of that collar, I moved on to a regular metal prong. He responds very well to light subtle corrections on the prong.
Once I started to use do off-lead training, I wanted to use an e-collar so that I could corret him from a distance. If I remember correctly, I started out by using the leash in conjunction with the e-collar. I would give a simultaneous pop on the collar along with the stim so he would understand what the stim meant. He had picked up on it almost that same day.
Once I started doing off leash obedience, I could do sit, down, and stand in various sequences from a distance at parks, in front of grocery stores, around the house, etc. He was very fast and responsive, and was very sure of the command's meaning. This was all off leash at a very far distance...I'd say a good 200 yards or so.


I trained stand the way Micheal Ellis trains stand. I used luring and put it under his chin and moved it up and toward him. As he followed it, his butt would rise and he would stand up. Then I would mark and reward.

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As of today, now that I am thinking about this really hard, I think that you are right that I am confusing him by repeating it too many times in a row. He is unsure if he is doing the right thing by the 10th time because he is wondering why I would ask him to do that 10 times in a row if he got it right the first time :P

I would love to share a picture, but I'm not exactly sure how to add it into my post... give me a minute and I might be able to figure it out.

I feel silly for posting this now because I realize that the problem is me, not him...