I got involved in a discussion on Victoria Stillwell's facebook page when someone else posted the video link to Leerburg's introducing a dog and cat video. I replied great clip and how much respect I had for Leerburg etc. when another poster just kind of went off and posted:

"This video is very old school and would not be advised by any informed and educated trainer I know."

"Traininers in England would be serverely penalised and probably removed from the APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers) or Kennel club accredited trainer register. (The mere fact that they sell and recommenr prong collars on their website leads me to beleive that they are not registered with any governing body to monitor their actions.)"

By the time the conversation ended I was abusive and if I lived in England I would probably be in jail because I said I used a prong and corrections when warranted?

If anyone has the time, its a little long but can you read and tell me where I went wrong with pleading my case? It's the discussion topic "I need help" and my part starts after the video link is posted. I would appreciate anyone's input. I'm a little deflated because I don't like anyone suggesting I'm abusive to my dogs.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=17710&post=111008&uid=143027413824#topic_top

You were great.
She is closed minded and possibly scared that she doesn't know as much as she'd hoped.

The only mistake you made was not choosing your audience better....ROFL

Thanks guys! And yes I should have known what I was getting myself in for there.

First off, VS could stand to put on 10-15 lbs..but that's another story.
Your not going to change anybody's mind when they get to that extreme and England is pretty extreme when it comes to animal rights.
I've done a lot of natural earth work with terriers and a lot of it was with terrier men and women from GB. Over there you could get you car window smashed in if you had a NRA sticker in the window. They make PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) look like beginners.
I know! Not much of an answer but I don't really think there is one for the situation.
Many, I'll say most people get in these discussions, not to offer an opinion or advice but to TELL them the other person they are wrong.
I think they're all Democrats!
Did I say that with my outloud voice?

It's the same old arguement (and somehow they ALL sound the same O_o)....also, where to people GET these puppies? I mean come on, does no one evaluate a dog BEFORE bringing it home? If I was a new owner I don't think I'd take on a very fearful puppy....

I belong to a +ONLY (if I'd known that before I wouldn't have joined) dog training community on LJ who worships this woman. I get attacked for EVERYTHING...yet everytime I post a video of my "broken spirited" dog working with me we it's all "why doesn't my dog do that?"

Also, it's AMAZING the problems some of these +only have and the truly BIZARRE methods to deal with them....I mean, I'm all for redirection...but some behaviors THAT JUST DOESN'T CUT IT....

also, I've found the definition of a "rehabilitated" aggressive dog for +only IS NOT the same as one that's actually been rehabilitated in many cases...It is SCARY what they consider acceptable behavior!

Overall, you presented logic....they did not. However other people who read your arguement may be interested in what you have to say. Through massive e-debates on this LJ community I'm on I've converted many and linked them to this site which has helped the. However very few of those people were the individuals I was arguing with in the first place, most were their supporters who were reading the debates. So there is hope for others!!!!

Thank you Jamie!

This part actually struck me to as to how well her training was actually working;

"Don't get me wrong I do occasionally use 'corrections'. For example my 1 year old petterdale terrier X springer spaniel bitch who I am training to be an assistance dog has a habit of darting out into roads. I use a verbal correction and she has to repeat the crossing of the road until she does it properly or we just turn around and walk home. This is the only 'correction' she needs."

If that is the only correction the dog needs why did it continue to be a habit? For something as serious as darting out in traffic my correction would involve more than a do-over.

And I did want to offer another viewpoint to others who might be reading. I wasn't trying to convert anybody just saying my peace and probably will continue until they possibly kick me off.

A few weeks ago, I did a Google search for something dog-related - can't remember what. Came across a site that featured a large, close-up picture of a prong collar and the message was "stop the torture." The author of the site portrayed those who use prong collars to train dogs as basically sadistic cave people. Oh, the site originated in England.

I take it that Tritronics and Dogtra sales aren't too big across the pond either.

Whatever. They can train their dogs however they want. They won't be influncing how I train mine.

 Quote: rob abel

A few weeks ago, I did a Google search for something dog-related - can't remember what. Came across a site that featured a large, close-up picture of a prong collar and the message was "stop the torture." The author of the site portrayed those who use prong collars to train dogs as basically sadistic cave people. Oh, the site originated in England.

I take it that Tritronics and Dogtra sales aren't too big across the pond either.

Whatever. They can train their dogs however they want. They won't be influncing how I train mine.

That's the problem, somebody will hear what's going on over at "Air Strip One" and think we should do it, or not do it, over here.

I subscribe to a +ve only person's youtube channel. Her name is kikopup. She is anti e-collar (her T shirt says that) and prong ( I assume ). She puts out some excellent videos and I learn a lot from them.

having said that I recently saw a video on the down in motion and in that she said. Dont do this in an environment with too many distractions like near other dogs because this is unfair to the dog.This made me shake my head in disbelief.

My dog Kaiser has to walk through a mine field of crazy dogs every day . He is 7 m/o and will down 6' away from a fence charging, growling dog.

So my point is, I will take what makes sense from kikopup and loose the nonsense. +ve only may be good for parlour tricks, but not for working dogs \.