Daniel, Yes, I think they would both be considered pretty much the same. Thirty five / forty years ago, it was the "norm" and many well-meaning trainers used those methods.
Not anymore. Certainly not here on LB. But I think you know this and were just asking about these older, no longer approved of methods.
The terms today are often looked at as a negative but they don't have to be.
My first choice is ALWAYS marker training but the right dog, the right handler, the right situation compulsion/correction/yank and crank/force training can also be a good tool "when used correctly".
The biggest difference today is that force, if needed, shouldn't used until the dog has an understanding of what your trying to teach.
Back in the day it was just force the dog to comply with physical pressure.
Marker train first and apply correction in the proofing stages if needed.
The better you become with markers, the less force is needed in proofing.
Daniel Fernando Webboard User Reg: 05-21-2010
Posts: 106
Loc: Philadelphia, PA - US
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I see this one local trainer using food to train dog and when he / the dog fail to do the down command, he put prong collar to the dog and force the dog in down position.
he do the because the dog always in sit position and pick up the food / lure from sit.
he might get frustrated and use force for the last option?
Frustration is never a legitimate explanation for *any* method of training. If you're doing something solely because you are frustrated, you should probably not be training just then.
What you're describing sounds like a trainer who had failed to teach duration, and was then using force to correct his own mistake.
Jamie Craig Webboard User Reg: 09-01-2009
Posts: 986
Loc: Munroe Falls, OH
Offline
I suppose it would depend on your definition of "force" training. The insanely positive only LJ community I lurk in (keep getting attacked when I post) consider guiding a dog into any position with the use of anything other than freeshaping as "force" training and therefore abusive.
Accord to them using my hand to gentle guide my dog into position when I was teaching him to lay down properly as a puppy was "force" training. What was I doing? Gentle helping him get his back paws under him on slippery surfaces where he was prone to "puppy sprawling" or laying down on his side.
Crank and Yank...that really only has one definition in my experience. "Force" could mean a few different things depending on what circles you're in.
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Training Method: Force or Yank & Crank
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