I have a 20 month old GSD who is from working lines. I got him at 17 weeks old. The choice I made in getting him was undoubtedly stupid but it's a little late to change that now. It turned out he was basically unsocialized before I got him. Three days after I got him I walked him along a parkway by our house. He behaved aggressively- growled and tried to bite- an adult Shepherd and adult Lab. He growled at an 8 weekd old GSD pup but left him alone when the pup rolled on his back.

I took him to puppy school at the obedience school we take my husband's dog to. The trainer said it was fear and to correct the hell out of him until he stopped going after other dogs. I could kick myself for following this advice. There was no level of correction that would stop my dog. At 5 months old he would lunge against a prong collar until it popped open. The trainer gave a correction that yanked him off his feet and he still never stopped. However if the other dogs weren't moving- in a sit or down- he was fine. He would hold stay as long as the other dogs were still also. I endured this for 8 weeks and his aggression never subsided. By that time he was about 6.5 months old. At home he was a nice dog. He plays fine with our 4 year old GSD although he is very dominant with her. I rarely took him anywhere where there were other dogs because he turned into such a hellion.

When he was 9 months old I was ready to try again. Two trainers reccommended a specific behaviourist in my area. Her idea was to take him to a crowded dog park with a muzzle on. She explained that he would know there were too many other dogs and he couldn't go after them all. We met at the dog park and she took him in with his muzzle on while on a leash. She was surprised at how committed he was to going after other dogs. But here is something I noticed. He lunged at an Airdale while growling and snarling. But when the dog came back in his face he became submissive- he turned his head, avoided eye contact etc. If it was really fear I would have thought that when the perceived threat increased his aggressive response would also increase. After about 15 minutes of having him in the park she told me to come in and walk with them. Every time he went after a dog I yelled "Too bad!" and walked away. His attention immediately switched to being seperate from me and he disregarded the other dogs. By the end of the hour he was able to run around dragging his leash. He even relaxed enough to lay down while other dogs were still running around.

Two weeks later we went to the park again. The behaviourist was very surprised at how much he remembered. Within 15 minutes she took his leash off and he was running with the other dogs- still muzzled of course. He was running with 3 Huskies, not being chased and not really chasing. Just all keeping up with each other.
By the 3rd time he really played with a spaniel- chasing each other and using play behaviours like bowing and pouncing. While leaving the park and walking back to the car he was passing other dogs while he was on leash and he was fine.

The 4th time we went to the dog park he was jumped by 2 Shar-Peis?. In the end he was at the bottom of 5 dogs. He wasn't hurt but I wasn't comfortable taking him to a place when I've made him defenseless by putting a muzzle on him.

Trying to walk him on the parkway he's gotten even worse- although I've wondered if part of it is frustration since he can't get to the other dogs. He even reacts if there is a dog on TV- I can't even watch the Dog Whisperer. All the other aggressive dogs on there drive him nuts LOL. I am thinking of getting an E-collar for him. My concern is that if he's getting corrected for something that is a fear response that it just fulfills his fears. In the mean time as aggressive as he is he is a huge responsibility. I appreciate any insight others can give me.

Paragraphs make long, long posts so much more readable. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Normally, I'm glad to comment and make suggestions about aggression, as I work with it on a daily basis, which most trainers don't. But there's no way I'm going to wade through a post like that, sorry.

Originally posted by Pamela Diller:
Two trainers reccommended a specific behaviourist in my area. Her idea was to take him to a crowded dog park with a muzzle on. I agree with Will however this stuck out like a neon sign. Horrible idea!!!! Not the muzzling part but to take him around strange dogs like this. This is an unbelievable stupid idea!!!

What you want to do when you get to this point is to take him around dogs you know aren't reactive...one at a time.

Sorry for the length Will. I was just trying to give really complete information. I did edit to facillitate reading.

When you say you "corrected the hell out of him" what exactly do you mean by that? Did you resort to pinning him to the ground, scaring the crap right out of him and making him cry? Did you verbally remind him that you'd snap his neck in half if he kept it up? Does his fear of your wrath supercede his fear of other dogs? If he isn't absolutely terrified of your reaction to his outburts then you didn't correct the hell out of him.

Taking him to the puppy park is a horrible idea because he needs to trust you. You know he's afraid, but you put him there anyway, so that will affect his sense of security. Getting pinned by a pack of dogs, especially with the muzzle on, will only make him feel more helpless, making the problem worse.

If you're really tough and consistant you can get rid of this behavior.

The corrections in puppy school were to the point the all four feet left the ground and he flew thru the air. I think that is a pretty severe correction for a 6 month old puppy. The harder the correction the more his aggression escalated. While on the parkway I have pinned him to the ground. He continues to fight until the other dog is well past us. Just to be clear, when he got pinned by the other dogs he did not appear particularyly scared afterwards. As we walked towards the gate he was still trying to play with other dogs. However the incident emphasized that I was making my dog very vulnerable. I have not taken him back to the dog park since.

Pamela,
Now that I can read the post ( thank you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), the first question I would ask of you is:
Do you really have a strong need for your dog to get along with other dogs? And if so, why?

This is always my first question in cases like this. Your dog has found his place in your house pack without trouble, it seems. It now appears that you want him to play with strange dogs in a park, or come up nose-to-nose with strange dogs. I realize these were done by the trainer, but are you just looking to be able to walk your dog?

And the fact that you allowed a dog that you only had owned for three days to get close enough to try and bite other dogs on it's first walk with you is a bad sign.

Ok, fill us in on your thought process, and we'll take it from there.

Will,
Thanks for your input. There are a few reasons that I would want him to behave better with other dogs. My intention when I got him was to have him as an obedience and possibly agility dog. He's very intelligent and I think he would be happier with a job to do.

In addition a dog that could get along with others would better suit our lifestyle. Camping with friends, visiting relatives or just walking around the neighborhood are all difficult because our friends, relatives and neighbors also have dogs. My old dog had accompanied me most places and while Shadow didn't like other dogs in his face he could get along most places we went. My dog Krieger on the other hand acts like a maniac at the sight of other dogs.

I did allow Krieger too close to the other dogs to start with but I really hadn't anticipated a problem. He had been fine with meeting our other German Shepherd. I didn't seek the other dogs out. As you can imagine people were just drawn to come over and see the puppy with the feet and ears that looked too big. Also I had walked him for several short walks each day starting the 1st day we got him. But the 3rd day on the parkway was the first time other dogs had been around.

Pamela,

I'm sure that Will can do a better job advising you than I can. I just want to clarify. You only want your puppy to be able to interact with the dogs of friends and relatives, but you also don't want him to act like a maniac while you're walking him through the neighborhood?

I'm a fairly novice trainer, but I do know that you should be individually socializing your puppy with the dogs that he will be around as an adult.

There's just really no reason that your puppy should meet and like every dog in the neighborhood, though you should be able to walk him through the neighborhood without the aggressive behavior. When you're "walking" him through the neighborhood, are you heeling him, or just out for a fun walk?

My 10 month old GSD, Roxy, also barks, with hackles raised and tail wagging, at dogs that we see on our walks. When I "walk" Roxy around the neighborhood, it's not fun time, it's work time. I want her to stop this behavior, not because I care what the other dog owners think, but because her attention should be focused on me. What I started doing is stopping in the heel when we see another dog. I take out a treat, show it to her and hold it under my chin so that she looks at me. If she raises her butt off the ground to bark at the other dog, I correct her for breaking the heel and give her the "be quiet" command. I again try to get her attention with the treat. If she keeps her butt on the ground and her attention on me, then she gets the treat and verbal praise. If she doesn't comply, then we just start walking again and she doesn't get the treat. I've been doing this for a couple of weeks now and it's working really well. It's gotten to the point where she looks for a treat if she sees another dog on our walk.

Pamela, is this unwanted behavior diplayed predominantly while walking on the parkway?
If so, your dog is just doing what a dog would do by instinct...he's been marking this territory as his own, so when encountering other dogs, he's telling them to get the hell off his property.

The trainer, the behaviorist, and you yourself all have one thing in common...you are not 'correcting' but 'irritating' the dog.
to correct:to remove errors from
to irritate:to provoke to anger
Unless the correction has an effect on the behavior, it isn't a correction at all.

What is your dog's temperament like? What behavior modifying tactics have you used up untill now? If you give us some examples it would be helpful.

I agree with you in the sense that your dog must not be allowed to react this way. Not that he needs to frolic with other dogs, but he should at least allow them in his vicinity without incident.