First of all, I'd like to say "Hi and thank you in advance for your time."

I am 40 years old, and have owned pit bulls all my life (one at a time, of course, I'm not a complete idjit). I just have never owned one quite like Gator.

He is a wonderful companion animal which is the quality that has always attracted me to the breed.He has basic obedience skills, minds well, and is easy to correct.He has never met a person he did not love on sight and I have absolute confidence in him...at least I did have... I have taken this question to a couple of pit bull forums, but to be quite frank, some of those folk are a little scary.

Here's the situation...I always thought that the dog aggression problem with pit bulls could be reduced by excercising a few simple concepts. Gator was neutered at 10 months old, and was heavily socialized as a pup. He had canine friends who he saw everyday.Everything was going well.One day, out of the blue, Gator attacked his JRT friend. He has been intolerant of other dogs since that day. He had never been in a fight before and was never attacked by a larger dog (yes, I've been reading the articles here).

So, I accept the fact that Gator is dog aggressive, and take proper precautions.He is always on lead outside the 8 foot privacy fence, he has a great dane sized wire crate to ride in in the back of my truck, and I always schedule his vet appointments for the end of the day, so he does not encounter other dogs there. I have made arrangements with my vet, attorney and son that Gator is to euthanised if I die, as I don't trust anyone else to do all these things.

Gator is now 4 years old and has not been in another dog fight since that first one until last month. I was out in the middle of nowhere with Gator still on lead (coyotes ya know), when a young couple went by on mountain bikes. They were being followed by an off lead black lab. This dog saw Gator and ran right up to him. As the dog was approaching, Gator did not bark or growl.He did not raise his hackles. The only way to desribe it is he seemed to go up on his tippy toes on all 4 feet, his tail went up and quivered, and he got very "stiff". As the lab got close, I tried to kick it away, but it came on. Gator grabbed the dog by the face and shook it. After several times telling him "Leave it!",and hauling on his ear pretty hard, he reluctantly let go. At this point all the lab wanted was to get away. When Gator did let go, he hauled butt.Gator was wagging his tail, prancing, and very pleased with himself. The couple on the bikes did not return.

Gator broke a tooth during this so I took him to see Doc Pyle. I told him about the fight and he told me that Gator's behavior was "breed appropriate". He said that pits rarely give "threat displays", don't "feint" but go in full bore, and nearly always seem to enjoy the fight. He said not to worry about it because no matter how cautious I was fights were going to happen, and 2 in 4 years was a good track record.

Some other pit bull folks disagree however. They tell me that I should either euthanize Gator or keep him always confined. No more on lead walks. They contend that his enjoyment of the fight and lack of growling and barking and the fact that he did not raise his hackles is a sign of a dangerous dog. One even told me that the fact that he didn't bite several but "took one hold and worked it" means he would kill a person if he ever bit. I actually have been avoiding that person since. He keeps asking me if I've "put that man killer down yet".

So folks, I've tried to tell all that happened. I'm now asking for your opinions...is Gator a dangerous dog (to humans) and potential man killer?

I want to state up front that I have never owned a pit, nor worked one, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. However, I know people in pit bull rescue, and have had conversations with them about the general characteristics of the breed.

My first question would be about your dog's reactions around people. Has it ever shown fear or defensive reactions to strangers? Or strange enviornments? Children? How about his reactions to people in the house? Any sort of defensive or territorial behaviours?

There are quite a few others on the board with a wider knowledge base than I about dog breeds. I would think that dog aggression (or gameness) is a seperate issue than fear or territorial type of aggression; and that would concern me much more than a gamey pit.

Speaking from strictly a legal stand point I would not take your dog for a walk on or off lead without a muzzle.

You know there is always some idiot who has a "friendly" dog they are walking off lead that inevitable will bounce up to your dog to say "Hi" and then it will be all over but the crying. If that is where it ended I would not be that concerned.

However, what if the owner tries to break up the fight and your dog transfers his aggression and takes a hunk out of the owner or you . It will be bad enough if it is an adult owner but what if it is a child whose dog slipped its lead. The consequences are just to dire to ignore.

You might think your dog would never hurt a person and he might not intentionally but as you know anything is game in a dog fight including a stray arm or face. I believe a muzzle is the only way to go for your pup

Good luck

I'm so far from an expert it itsn't funny, but I can give you my experience with the breed, and maybe it will help.

We owned an AmStaff (rescue, spayed) for 15 years. Gypsy was totally non-aggressive with people, would let ANYONE into her yard or home, let anyone approach her or us. She was completely useless as a guard or pp dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Unless you broke into the house and tripped on her, breaking your ankle, you'd never, ever have had an injury caused by her.

Very dog aggressive, though, and she didn't warn - she just went. She was VERY tolerant of puppies, and got along well with a mixed-breed bitch that she'd been raised with, as well as my Rottie (rottie was male, neutered, and the mixed breed was VERY VERY submissive - no real contests for her). She did that "tippy toe" stance when another dog approached, and that was all she wrote. Thankfully, she was a small bitch (45 lbs) and we never got her into a situation that we couldn't get out of. We worked HARD on obedience..really hard. She had to be at the point that we could gain her attention at any time for anything.

However - she was never walked off-lead. We never muzzled her, but I think if we had lived in a place where confrontations with off-lead dogs had been common, we probably would have. Where we were had a strictly enforced leash law, and good neighbors.

I was always informed that pits were usually quite people friendly and dog aggressive, as dogs used for the pit needed to be handled easily by their owners and death on other canines. I don't know how much, if any, truth that holds. My husband grew up with pits, and says none of their dogs were people aggressive at all, but all were dog aggressive.

Gyps was a super companion dog, and it would be hard to find another like her, even taking into account her dog-aggressive tendencies. We simply never took anything for granted regarding her behavior, and never let our guard down - and she never disappointed us.

I don't know if that helps or not. My gut says a basket muzzle in public situations might not be a bad idea, or maybe working with an ecollar in regards to the aggression? I'm sure the others on this board have much, much better advice!

Good luck, and I hope all goes well for you.

Personally, I think highly of the Pit Bull, being one of the most eager to please and having an uncanny ability to know what to do and when to do it.

I've never owned one, but I do know that dog aggressiveness(not people aggressiveness) is one of their natural traits(being originally bred for pit-fighting). The Doc was right when he said your dog's reaction was breed appropriate. But that doesn't make the PB a bad dog; it's just one of their traits. It's in them, like prey drive is part of the German Shepherd. So if you own other dogs, or let your dog play with other dogs, take that into account.

Hell no, don't euthanize a Pit Bull for being a Pit Bull. But if you're the one going out of your way to make Gator some doggy friends, you're stirring up a hornets nest, and that's not your dog's fault.

I like to think that all a Pit Bull needs is his people, no other dogs, and everything would be fine.

You're lucky to have learned such a valuable lesson for free! No doubt about it, you can't leave the house without a prong collar and a muzzle on Gator (like you didn't know that, lol)

If you don't mind me saying so, I do find your 'last wishes' regarding Gator's demise rather freakish. Is he alot worse that you're letting on?

Thanks so much for the quick responses.

Melissa...I am not worried at all about Gator's responses towards people. In that department my boy is rock-solid.He has no territorial tendencies (though to be honest, he has never had his territory threatened), and no resource guarding problems.Any human can take a treat right out of his mouth.He is a very "soft" doog with people; a stern look is enough to make him do the "I'm sorry" whine.

And to Trent... I'm not much worried about his re-directing onto a stray arm or leg. To break up the lab fight I literally lifted Gator onto his back feet by an ear, and when he did let go, he just stood there with that goofy bulldog grin on his face watching the lab run like his ass was afire and his ears was catching.

Amber...I was so glad to read about your Gypsy. To know this may just be a breed trait and not my dog being unsound is a huge comfort.What got me thinking was the other pit owners who said that Gator giving no warning before attacking the other dog made him very dangerous.

And Mike...I know Gator doesn't need doggie friends. LOL, my problem is more like convincing friends that Gator is much happier letting their kids climb all over him than he would be around other dogs. I've known for years now that Gator is happiest around people and his only 4 legged bud, Dammit the mule. I just almost let some rabid people convince me Gator had real problems. But I'm feeling much better now! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And Cynthia, I appreciate your concern for my wishes regarding Gator. I suppose I should explain. I have spoiled this dog rotten. He eats a certain brand of food, at very set times of the day. He sleeps in my bed, with his own pillow. He goes to certain places on certain days for exercise. He sees Doc frequently as he has sequela from a snakebite a couple years back. He takes anti-convulsant meds which are rather expensive. My son already has 2 dogs, so Gator going there is not an option. I just don't trust anyone else to meet all Gator's needs, and I know he would do very poorly in a shelter environment. I think that being with my boy and Doc and drifting off to sleep would be the kindest thing if I weren't around. I have made the same arrangements for Dammit as well. He is a rescue who also has medical issues.

Again thank you all for taking the time to respond. I'm very glad I found this board.

Hi Michelle,
Your pit bull seems to have the best home in the world. Some dogs require special needs and precautions (as do some people). I frequently see pits in the parks of NYC with muzzles for dog agression problems. I walk my Rotty with his best friend Max (rotty too). They will walk side by side (leashed of course) for hours without a peep. All of a sudden hell breaks loose between them for several seconds, we seperate them and everything is fine. I am working on that behavior and it is improving. I agree with your decision to put him down if you should go first. I too feel that my dog will never get the attention and have the relationship with any other family member or owner.I won't have to look for him at the Rainbow Bridge, he'll be by my side.
Good Luck.
Jerry
PS. Get him out of the bed, it just adds to the dominance issue.

4th paragraph " I accept the fact that gator is dog aggressive , and take proper precautions" mmm apparently you forgot one!, The muzzle.

If your dog has good nerves, and is sound around people, then you have one of the rarest of combos; a good pit, in a good home, with a responsible owner.

Cynthia, I think Michelle ahs shown great foresight in her plans for her dog in the event of her death. This dog is dangerous to other dogs, and she would have no control over its rehoming. There are people out there who cruise shelters, looking for dogs to fight. What a miserable ending that would be.

I am of two minds about the muzzle, tho. A pit, walking around with a muzzle, who looks even cross-eyed, or jumps on someone, is going to be automaticlly 'viscious', regardless of intent. And with a history of dog aggression, well, the jury is not going to split hairs about types of aggression, how a dog can be dangerous to other dogs but fine with people.

I think you are much safer to get a big hickory walking stick (there is a link here somewhere), and pepper spray. The damage you do is a lot less than what your dog will do, and you can always say you were defending yourself against an 'attack', should the owners yell about you hitting their off leash, untrained dog. And make SURE your dog has an absolutly reliable 100% down stay. Your dog doesn't sound like he has any dominance issues, so this shouldn't be a problem. Make sure you proof around other dogs, that will be his biggest distraction.

Remember, because of your dog's breed, you have 2 strikes against you already; three strikes, in some parts of the country. Good luck, and welcome to the board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Keep your vet, too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />