Hi...

I recently posted the post about the 3.5 month old barking with hair up...well I have an update and I also need some more advice...

I have been socializing my puppy everyday by taking him with me to work. There he is walked in a downtown metropolitan city everyday at lunch and many people stop and pet him. People of all ages, ethnics, social standing, disabled, etc. He does absoulutely perfect in these situations. Always very friendly, licking people and letting them pet and even with kids, hugs, and groups crowding around him. O.k from that everything sounds fine....well not quite.

I have been noticing the same behavior as before, but now at home. If I let him outside he barks with his hair up and tonight something happened that concerned me a bit. A friend and her 4 yr old daughter came over tonight and I brought the pup in to meet the little girl. He had just seen my friend at work about two hours before she came over. He immediately started barking at them and when they came close he lundged a little bit at them with a deep growl. I backed him off and immediately got treats and gave them to the kid and had her feed him from her moms arms then as things calmed down a bit I had her get closer and eventually worked in to where she was standing on the ground telling the pup to sit and then give him a treat. This was fine but as soon as she stopped with the treats, he got real nervous and jumpy again. So I put him out.

This was not the first time kids had been to my home, about 6 weeks prior I had four kids rangeing from 2 to 10 and four adults and everything was fine. When I have him out during the day at lunch he is fine with kids, very friendly. So, I am puzzled by this.

So my specfic questions are these:

Do pups this age go through a stage where they get protective of the house?

Will he always be like this or will it get better?

How concerned should I be about what happened?

What should I have done differently in this situation?

What should I do to address this in the future?

And, as always, any other advice would be greatly appreicated. By the way, I am training this dog in SchH, but he hasn't started ANY bite work yet, just tracking and very positive ob. Also, one more thing, I, myself, was nervous about introducing the pup to the little girl, could the dog have picked up on that and I helped cause the problem?

Thanks for all your input!

Do pups this age go through a stage where they get protective of the house?

-Your dog is not showing protection he is showing fear.

Will he always be like this or will it get better?

-No he will get worse

How concerned should I be about what happened?

-Very

What should I have done differently in this situation?

-Teach the dog that this is not tolerated.

What should I do to address this in the future?

-Remove him from SchH training.

I guess I am going to disagree with Vince.

Do pups this age go through a stage where they get protective of the house?

Not usually at this age. It usually happens later. There are some things that will affect that. If the dog is around other dogs it will increase the behaviors as a form of imitation. If the dog has weak "nerves" this may cause a fear based reaction. If the dog hasn't been socialized at home, it is also a possible socialization issue. Keep in mind dogs are poor generalists. The method you use for introduction to visitors can cause problems. Tight leash, hesitant presentation, lack of obedience in the situation, forcing the issue too soon, and a host of other things.

Will he always be like this or will it get better?

It depends on how you handle it and if the training takes. Socialize at home. Use obedience to control the behaviors. Have the guests ignore the puppy when they first come in, and have the dog initiate the contact after he has calmed down. If he starts to get aggressive, control it with obedience, move the dog back from the situation and then down stay until it calms down. Don't use children for bait for this. Kids are bad for socialization, they move too fast, they tend to be too loud, and they have a tendancy to push the dog.

How concerned should I be about what happened?

Fairly. This is a problem that left undealt with can get much worse. By not dealing with it you are encouraging it.

What should I have done differently in this situation?

One, if this is the first time the dog has seen a strange kid in your house in six weeks, then the dog isn't socialized to the situation enough. It is just like the situation you had before. When the behavior started , move the dog back from the situation and put it on a down stay and have the guests ignore the puppy. Give the dog an opportunity to observe how you inter-act with the puppy. Don't have the child feed the dog from the moms arms. If the dog is fearful, don't have the guest force themselves on the dog. Be fairly nonchalaunt about the behavior. Command the dog to out, and then down and then you and the guests ignore it until he calms down. The only thing that you should do is enforce the obedience command.

What should I do to address this in the future?

Obedience, socialization AT HOME, and don't react negatively or reassuringly to the behavior. Just go in to the obedience very matter-of-factly and make sure the dog responds. No bite work until this is worked out totally. Don't teach the dog to be more effective biting people until the dog can inter-act properly with a neutral/friendly stranger. Be pro-active rather than re-active when the dog greets people. Give a command that it is ok, rather than waiting for the dog to act and then try and correct it. Once every six weeks or so isn't socializing. The dog needs to see people on a regular basis. At least a couple of times a week or more until this straightes out. If it doesn't straighten out don't bite train. To bit train a dog that is not properly socialized in all areas is dangerous.

DM wrote: Do pups this age go through a stage where they get protective of the house?

RC wrote: Not usually at this age. It usually happens later.

There are exception to every rule. But let’s use reasonable probabilities.

DM wrote: Will he always be like this or will it get better?

RC wrote: It depends on how you handle it and if the training takes.

I obviously meant if correctives matters were not taken.

DM wrote: How concerned should I be about what happened?

RC wrote: Fairly.

Fairly for someone with your knowledge but I would say very for her.

DM wrote: What should I have done differently in this situation?

RC wrote: Command the dog to out, and then down and then you and the guests ignore it until he calms down.

That looks like teaching the dog this is not tolerated to me. (Richard uses Out for stop that)

DM wrote: What should I do to address this in the future?

RC wrote: To bit train a dog that is not properly socialized in all areas is dangerous.

So Richard. Where is the disagreement?

Vince,

I don't think that there is no hope for this dog. That was the impression I got from your answer:

-No he will get worse

-Remove him from SchH training.

Another difference to my point of view was your statement:

-Your dog is not showing protection he is showing fear.

I am not sure this is the type of genetic "fear" that we talk about with a dog that is unsuited for protection training. This dog seems to do fine in some situations, for that reason I think this may be a training problem rather than a genetic problem. I think that there is still potential for this dog if it is properly trained. I am less of the opinion that the genetics are the total problem in these types of cases. Often the dog does not get a proper introduction in many areas and then the develops these types of behaviors and that is blamed on the genetics. In my mind it is just too easy to blame the breeder and not take responsibility for the training the dog recieves.

Even with sound genetics these types of behaviors can be created with poor socialization. I have seen too many dogs that were "socialized" by being introduced to people once every month or two and then the owner can't figure out why the dog doesn't like anybody. Another problem is that too often people accept this type of behavior because they have been told that the breed is "aloof". When in fact what that really menas is that with out direction the dog isn't going to approach people. Many people take it to mean that the dog will be actively aggressive in all new situations. That type of brhavior is either poor genetics (behavior maintained with proper socialization, fear based aggession), or lack of socialization during formative times when the dog is maturing and the dog hasn't learned the "rules". I think this is at least as common as poor genetics. I hear this frequently with people that are having trouble with their BRTs. The people hear that the breed is aloof and do nothing about proper socialization as a puppy and can't figure out why the puppy isn't able to interact with people they don't know.

There are so many things that you and I do out of habit, things that we don't even think about, that people new to working temperament dogs don't know to do. We understand how to raise these types of dogs and not everyone does. As a result it has to be described in detail or there is a tendancy to accept these types of behaviors as chacteristic of the breed and do nothing about it. This problem is compounded by some of the bad information about what socialization should be done with a puppy for protection work. The belief that a protection dog has to be automaticly aggressive to all strangers is the biggest problem.

Thank you both for your candor. I am going to work on socializing him at home by having people stop by and try the out, down, ignore. How long should I leave him in a down? Should I also ignore him during this time, or just stay close enough to do corrections if he breaks the down? How should I let him start to interact? Let him up after he's calm and then just let him come around for attention? I gather this should only be done with adults. I am taking your comments very seriously and I appreciate both inputs. I also agree with Vince that with my experience level this could be a very serious problem. I really think it has more to do with my lack of training a working dog, then his temperament (but I am not exactly qualified to make that determination). I have been working on socializing everyday since my first post about this, but I guess I wasn't aware that I would also have to do it at my house as frequentely. I am also going to talk to the SchH club I am in and get input and help with his socialization in the home.

Thanks for your help.

Dobemom,

Put him in the down, on leash, and keep the leash loose. Ignore him except to enforce the down. Once he calms down let him approach the person carefully, probably 10-15 min. Loose lead. Correct any mis behavior by putting him back in the down. What you are doing is giving the dog a chance to observe hw you interact with the problem. This is a bit of a tricky age, and I would be concerned with children based on his present behavior. If the dog had had more socialization at home, this problem may not have occured. I say that not to blame, but to explain the behavior. My guess is that this will change with some time and work, just like the previous problem.

Now you know why I rarely answer these types of threads. Without seeing the dog it is too subjective.

Isn't a 4.5 month old puppy too young to be taught the down stay or the out? I thought he might be a little immature to be expected to perform these commands.

Just wondering. If this puppy is old enough to learn these commands, what methods do you use to train them? Would the down stay make him even more fearful of the situation?

Bob

I begin obedience when the puppy comes home. It usually only takes a few days for the dog to understand the command. Out I teach as an obedience command. The way I use it it is more of a "Stop what you are doing" command. Even a puppy this young is going to do a "down stay" mostly because it is a comfrotable way to wait. Since the new person isn't approaching the puppy in this position, the puppy will not feel threatened, or submissive. When the puppy has calmed down the puppy is allowed up to approach the person.