In an article titled Chows and Chow Mixes Know What You Are Getting Into!! by Ed Frawley http://www.leerburg.com/chows.htm Ed talks about not letting people (guests, friends etc.) who are not members of the dog's own pack of humans pet the dog. This seems to me to be relevant to dogs other than Chows too. It seems that following this approach would have kept several of the problems mentioned in posts that I have read here and elsewhere, not to mention some of the horror dog bite stories that make the papers, from being problems.

I am interested in people's thoughts on this in general.

I am also particularly and specifically interested in ideas about how this would relate to trying to rehabilitate/give remedial socialization to adult rescue dogs--especially dominant dogs of 'protective' breed types.

Finally, I have been invited to take my dog to a dog gathering to raise awareness and money for "rescues", and noticed that the registration forms did not ask questions about socialization of the dogs attending. There were liability wavers, but if even one dog in such a group is not good with strangers it would seem that this is not only an "accident waiting to happen" but one that would tend to bring bad repute to the dogs of the breed in question or even to other similar breeds. It seems that such dog jamboree gatherings are becoming more and more popular --any thoughts?

Kate

I think that because the majority of this board has working dogs (and even those who don't) most agree that no one should walk up to your dog and pet it. Unfortunately, a large segment of the population thinks it's perfectly ok to run up to mine, and I'm sure others can attest to this, screeching about how cute they are and proceed to stick a hand into their faces. I've gotten into more than one "discussion" on how it's not only RUDE, but potentially dangerous to pet an animal you don't know. At one point I thought about having a shirt made up for my husky that said "Do not pet me, I don't bite, but my owner does!". I pick and choose whom I allow to pet my dogs, and have done so since they were just little pups, thus controlling the situation and their socialization at all times.
As for socializing and rehabbing a rescue dog, most rescues have some pretty dog savvy people running them, that's the beauty of rescue, having the time and having the dogs in a home and family situation where behavior can be evaluated a bit better. Any rescue fair or gathering I've ever attended, I've seen only one incidence of a dog becoming aggressive, and he was immediately taken home. I think some of these aggressive dogs, people or otherwise, can't ever be truly "socialized", however, they can be trained to the point where they are no longer a public threat, but then it goes right back to the beginning of making sure no one pets your dog without asking, and never putting yourself or your dog in a position that can trigger the aggression. Vicious circle, isn't it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ? Good example, read the thread concerning an adopted dog who was a fear biter, I believe it's in the "Problems with my ASPCA dog" forum.

Thanks for such a quick reply!

In addition to people who have working group breeds, it is a major problem for people with working dogs especially Guide Dogs, even a sweet Golden, to have people come up and pet the dog as it distracts the dog from its job--quite aside from any issue of the dog biting.

It is possible that the particular dog gathering I mentioned did not ask about dog socialization because it was assumed that the handlers being invited were savvy enough and experienced enough in rescue work that we would not bring a dog that was not up to the experience. Also I decided not to attend because of distance and just realized that what I saw was an unofficial invitation not the formal registration as I had indicated in the post above--maybe on the formal registration it did ask about dog socialization, whether it had its CGC etc.

Still, in regard to socializing of adult dogs, there are many many dogs who are in homes that did not have the chance to socialize them or get to know them and their behaviour from puppyhood. (Nor are all of these homes those of experienced rescuers or official rescue organizations.) And that makes for an even bigger catch-22 than just wanting people to ask before petting.

There is a big potential jump from the point of strangers as hot dog vending machines to the point of strangers as petters. And there is a big jump from dealing with the dog in the home environment with just its own human family ("pack")(whether the permanent forever home or temporary foster situation) to exposing it to guests, friends etc. of the human, but who are strangers to the dog. There are of course some things known that may not be known with a dog that was always in better situations--for example, I know that the dog I am now working with is at least friendly enough to have let himself be rescued off a freeway, and versatile enough to go from the initial rescuers care to mine.

Still, with a dog that I have raised since puppyhood even though she was of one of the "protective" type breeds, I knew that she could very safely be petted, adored strangers etc.--an exception that proved the rule of her breed so to speak. Yet if the "rule" that non-"pack" members don't pet were more adopted with even a very safe dog like that one, perhaps fewer people would think that it was okay to rush up to a strange dog and pet it, and you might not ever even need to consider the shirt for your Husky. (though the shirt sounds cute <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) ????

I definetly agree I would not want someone walking up to my dog without permission and just petting him. He is a siberian husky known for friendliness but anything can happen. I also want to mention that dog parks, at least the one I go to does not have any warnings about bringing small children to the park. I have read that some dogs find small children a threat because they are eye to eye with the taller dogs. Also I would find the screaming of these kids to be a danger, or maybe I just find it annoying.

I think a great deal depends on the dog's temperment. There are (IMO)dogs out there that would be just fine with a stranger walking up and petting them. I don't beleive though, that this is a smart thing to do and as a general note these type dogs are the exception and not the rule. I am reluctant to let people pet my Malinois, even if she is familiar with them. I have to be by her side, and I get very irritated when people just reach out and pet the dog without asking, and most people will do that. My Mal is not likely to act aggressively, but she is training to perceive threats against me or against her, and to act accordingly. I would hate for someone to think they could make a quick movement to pet her, and have her act accordingly. Common courtesy says ask before you pet. "If you love your arm, weigh the potential harm."

On the other end of the spectrum is my Pit Bull. Almost everyone asks if they can pet him, but I don't mind when they don't. He is the exception. He will walk up to anyone he sees and begin wagging his tail, and rubbing up against them because he loves affection, and it doesn't matter who it is coming from. This is the dog I let my 5 year old climb all over, and who I have let my 88 year old grandmother dog sit. Again, the exception to the rule.

It seems only appropriate that there be as much precaution taken to avoid dog bites, and aggression. There are certain times when the aggression is acceptable (protection, ScH, Police, etc.) but that is it. A responsible owner/handler should always know what is going on, and be aware of anything/action that might make the dog uncomfortable. If there is any question about the dog's behavior, and the handler can not control the dog, then the dog should not be placed in a position where an accident is waiting to happen. Just MHO.

For me, my goal is to have a friendly, approachable search and rescue dog. I do not ever want my dog to bite anyone, anytime. I go to great lengths to insure myself against this by socializing the crap out of her. This includes collar-grab exercises where a stranger walks up to her and grabs her collar, and "surprises" where a stranger appears out of nowhere. I do all of these exercises under controlled circumstances where the chances of a bite are minimal, but all the participants recognize the potential for a bite and sign a waiver of liability. I don't "allow" strangers to approach her and stick their hands out to her, but I definitely want as much insurance against that kind of thing provoking a negative response from her as possible.

I just have to put my 2cents worth in here because EVERY dog (in the past 3 shepx and currently a chihuahua, pekingese and GSD) I've ever had has been from the pound or local ASPCA.

Years ago I was with one of my dogs-85 pound shepx- when a toddler (no more than two) ran up to my dog and hugged her around the neck. The parents were nowhere near and not in the least bit concerned. The looks on their faces was-aw isn't that cute. My dog just froze and looked at me as if to say-can you get this kid off me?
The general public is generally stupid.

This dog was my first dog. I got her from the ASPCA. She was taken into protective custody and used in an animal abuse trial. I was uninformed, uneducated about dogs. I didn't take any of this into consideration and got her anyway because she seemed nice. She had "ghosts" in her head. Wouldn't get into cars, jumped at stationary objects, cried in her sleep. I didn't know any better so I just took her everywhere with me-to parades, camping, on boats, to the beach, dragged her into the car for rides, everything. By the time the kid incident occured I had her about ten years. Nothing phased her.

What's the moral of this story? A dog intended just to be a pet I believe NEEDS to be able to put up with ANYTHING in order to survive in our society. I believe all the more for a rescue dog. If it can't cope, it can't live in our society. The same stupid people are adopting rescue dogs. If the dog is not 110% sure not to bite, that stupid person will unintentionally let a bite occur and then be shocked when it happens. Dogs get bad reps and that particular dog gets put to sleep.

Last nite I took my least social dog out trick or treating. She's not unsocialized, she just doesn't seem to enjoy fuss and excitement. Hands reached out to her from everywhere. By the end of the nite she was igoring all the hands and activities. May seem cruel to put her through something she doesn't enjoy, but better that than to have her bite someone one day. There's no "one bite" chance where I live.

We had a shep/akitax who's temperament couldn't handle this life I describe. We eventually put her to sleep.

This opinion doesn't apply to sport dogs. I believe handlers of sport dogs have a greater responsibility. Just as I believe someone trained in hand to hand combat is held to a higher standard of responsibility with those skills.