This is not a pressing need- Just curious on your thoughts since all of you are so great at continuing your dogs' training.

My parents have a Lab who was seized 2 years ago in a abuse/neglect case. He lived in a cellar and was routinely baited with food, then beat. He was fearful to the point that the local HS gave him 1 more week to find a home before they would end his life. My mom brought him home on day 5. He had been adopted twice and through 3 foster homes because if you attempted to interact with him he would either a) Lay absolutely still and quit breathing or b) Bolt as fast as he could to the nearest bed, table or other hiding spot. He has come a long way from the 6 months he spent curled in a ball in Mom's basement. He now seeks petting from trusted adults and any kids that he meets. He doesn't have any agression whatsoever.
The problem lies with training. He can sit, down and fetch because he interacts with my dogs and has learned from them, but any sort of formal training and he is on the ground shaking. Loading a mark is impossible because after treat 2 or any sound accompanying a treat he shuts down, most likely from the bating when he was young. The local trainers have been pushing mom to put him in formal training classes, but do you all think that would be as disasterous as we do given his almost constant fear state away from his safe places? Is there really a need for it? They are perfectly content letting him just be himself. He is too fearful to misbehave. Once he jumped up on my mom and she cried because he acted like a normal, happy dog. Is it reasonable to keep training small behaviors by playing with him and my dogs, using that as training stimulation for his mind? He visits several times a week and loves it. Does it count, or is it just ok to give him a free pass based on circumstances. The "experts" here say absolutely not, but I disagree. Let me know your thoughts please?

Will he sit or lie down when asked to or just when he sees your dogs doing so when they're told to? If the former, i would put him on a very simple, informal NILIF program where he's asked to sit (or down) prior to meals, treats, walks, etc. NILIF can help a fearful dog gain confidence. Also, if you can find someone experienced in dealing with very fearful dogs who teaches agility I would consider taking him for lessons. Agility's a wonderful confidence booster if you can find someone willing to work with you at his pace.

But, it sounds as if he's already getting some training. It may be informal but that's ok. He's learning and that is what counts.

I personally would not fix what isn't broken and would continue doing what ever it is that you guys have figured out what is working. I also would not give up on marker grainy however, and would try loading the mark in a different way... Perhaps sitting on the floor, watching tv (something which removes it from feeling like a formal training session) and just say yes and hand the dog a very high value treat -maybe raw beef or slightly cooked chicken, etc... Very casual and laid back, but with the human in a very non-confrontational position. Just working on that part for as long as it takes to help this pup learn that a treat does not mean a beating. (please let there be a special area in Hades for evil people like that...) I also think that most group training classes are over rated...IMHO.

 Quote: amy vandeweerd

The local trainers have been pushing mom to put him in formal training classes, but do you all think that would be as disasterous as we do given his almost constant fear state away from his safe places? Is there really a need for it? They are perfectly content letting him just be himself.

If I understand correctly, this is a pet/companion dog for your parents, right? If so, who the heck cares if he has formal training??? All that matters is that your parents are happy with him (and it does sound like he's made marvelous progress under their care). I believe that any dog should possess good household manners and be well-behaved in public, but IMO "formal obedience training" is not a requirement.

Are your parents part of the dog training community? Is that why there are local trainers pushing them into group classes? I guess I would just stay away from those "experts" or, at the very least, ignore their opinions. From what you've described, I too think that group classes would be very traumatic for the dog.

One thing that would be important to work on is a reliable recall, which is always in the dog's best interest, safety-wise. But you can reward the recall with other things besides food. Use a favorite toy or just lots of praise, petting and scratching of favorite places for coming when called.

I commend your parents for giving this dog another chance. It sounds like he has a great life with them.

Go at your own pace sounds good to me.
Since he's a lab, perhaps some swimming might be introduced. Could be something he's never seen and would not associate anything bad with. A calm walk near still water, some sticks thrown in. No pressure, no commotion. It might turn him on.

If I have learned anything from this forum, it is that each dog is its own unique case and is going to require a program that suits its needs. When the trainer brought out a spray bottle of bitter apple and placed it in the middle of the floor and announced, "Use this if you want to quiet your barking dog," I knew I was in the wrong class and never returned. Spraying Jethro with bitter apple when he was over threshold in a class situation would not calm him, it would make him worse.

It has to be okay for anyone of us, dogs or humans, to make slow progress. Because that might be the only way we make any progress at all!

Cudos to you and your parents for your gentle approach with this dog. It is restorative on so many levels.

I don't "train" my dog.

Not to say we never worked on anything. I trained him to walk good on a leash and come when called.

My extent of training is to be a good dog around people and other animals and to walk good on a leash.

Master that, doggy, and you can retire at my house.

 Quote: amy vandeweerd

They are perfectly content letting him just be himself.

If this is the case, I would be too and sounds like what he needs right now.

Actually, I’d probably look at “being himself” as the ultimate goal. From the sounds of it, there’s a mass of confusion as to who “he” really is. Treats filled with terror, too scared to misbehave, etc.

Those are the challenges he's faced with right now and as Michael said, you train/work on what you and he "need".

 Quote: amy vandeweerd

ok to give him a free pass based on circumstances. The "experts" here say absolutely not

I wonder what these “experts” rationale was. Are they thinking about obedience, sport or simply behavior modification?

To me, the first thing that needs to be restored is confidence. Confidence in his right to exist – pain and terror free. Any formal, structured training has the ability to throw some confusion into the mix and god forbid, some kind of correction be applied.

I would be letting him live as simply as possible. Once he starts to really settle, his ability to truly be who he is will start to shine through.

He’ll let you know when it’s time for “training with the experts”.

Kudo's to your parents, they're doing a wonderful thing.

Your playing games with the dog on a regular basis and he loves it!
Some of us would call that training....and we love it.
Years ago when I taught my very first obedience class I went into it thinking everyone should shoot for competition level training.
The frustrations were killing me with all the "pet people" till the very last day.
One lady with a Yorkie that couldn't heel, wouldn't stay without mommy and totally flunked the 11 week course walked up to me and, with a big hug, said "Thank you Bobb". "I can finally open the front door and Joey doesn't run out anymore".
She got the obedience she was happy with!
Not everyone wants or NEEDS that high scoring competition dog or classroom training for that matter....but I got another hug!

She said "Thank you Bobb" ?

You heard that second "b"?