Assume the following about me. I've never had a dog...much less a working dog.

Let's say I told you that I wanted a puppy for the primary purpose of PP (not just barking)/companionship, with a secondary interest in recreational Schutzhund.

Based on the Flinks puppy test, how would the appropriate puppy (for me) score...ideally? I assume there might be relationships between certain traits that tend to occur together, or might be mutually exclusive.

How differently would the desirable Schutzhund-puppy score?

Flinks test

And what exactly in the PP-puppy would compromise a cutting edge Schutzhund performance?

Here's my own shot-in-the-dark assessment.

Test 1. (Exploring the room)
Result 1: Immediately explores, relaxed body posture, behaves confidently.

Test:2 (Coming to stranger)
Result 2: Comes immediately but somewhat guarded in the last stretch, head and body posture slightly tense.

Test:3 (Retrieve Test)
Result 1: Immediately chases ball, takes ball in mouth and carries it, good speed.

Test:4 (Coming to two strangers)
Result 2: Comes immediately but somewhat guarded in the last stretch, head and body posture slightly tense.

Test:5 (Paw Pressure 10 seconds)
Result 2: Defends himself energetically and aggressively (positive)

Test:6 (Laying on his back)
Result:1 Lies confidently and relaxed, legs and paws are relaxed (positive)

Test:7 (noise)
Result 1: Not frightened and inspects the bucket.

Test:8 (Cigarette pack)
Result 1: Chases fully committed, immediately takes in mouth, fights.

Test: 9 (Making attraction with the box, then pulling the box up (Nerves)
Result 1: Watches the box for a long time (more than 5 seconds) without letting himself be distracted.

Originally posted by Kurze Haare:
Assume the following about me. I've never had a dog...much less a working dog.

Let's say I told you that I wanted a puppy for the primary purpose of PP (not just barking)/companionship, with a secondary interest in recreational Schutzhund. well, quite frankly, I'd tell you to look elsewhere just based on this snipet of info. Assuming you've a) never owned a dog, b) have no experience with a working breed, yet you want a dog for PP, I'm not going to put myself or one of my dogs into your hands.

I'm sure that's not what you wanted to hear, but that's where I'd stand on it. I'd rather keep an extra pup than put it into the wrong hands.

I think it is a great question...

Kurze Haare,

While Mike's post may at first seem harsh you seriously need to consider his words, because a lot of breeders are going to feel the same way.

While I applaud your search for knowledge I think maybe you might be trying to bite off more than you can chew. Training is daily, several times a day, EVERY day... then you have to train with your group/decoy AT LEAST once a week(three times would be the best) Having a PP dog does change your lifestyle a bit. I am not saying that all those changes are bad, but they are a lot to start off with in a dog.

I kinda think this is like wanting to go hop into a tank when you have never even shot a BB gun.

(ok, maybe that wasn't the best comparison)

And what Mike said about "putting himself" in your hands also will ring true with breeders that have the best interest of their dogs at heart. No one wants to hear about the dog attack that was out of that dog from XYZ kennel. Believe it or not that breeders reputation is at stake with every puppy sold. News travels fast, but bad news travels the fastest.

I can tell you, just from my own experience, that you are looking a bit high in the sky. I have had dogs my whole life. I groomed professionally for 4 years and now work in a spay/neuter clinic part time and have seen more dogs than most ever will(aside from you trainers and groomers). Yet everyday I am learning with my dog, and I will for the rest of my life.

Do you have a valid need for a PP dog? I know where you live can be interesting at best, but do you live in fear for your saftey? If so, you need to look at a trained adult. It will still require a lot of training on your part, but with a good trainer, having a workable dog will be much more likely than if you strike out with a puppy and intentions of PP/SchH. I don't mean to sound accusatory, but the majority of people do not need a true-blue-tuff-as-nails-PP-Dog. All they need is the presence of a dog, and even a lowly SchH dog will bark on command.

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe you need to re-evaluate your position on what you NEED.

Barking dog and concealed carry go a long way in terms of security.

thanks Deanna, you kind of explained more eloquently what I was trying to get across. I'm not one for words (except the dirty ones...LOL), but you seemed to know exactly what I meant.

You are welcome Mike, I know you decoy types tend to be short on words and talk with your bodies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I am very good at translating male into female... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pssst... I like the dirty ones too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Deanna

Your rattling an old mans brain. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Time to go to sleep now. Night all!

I wanna see 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 in a puppy.

I want the most outgoing, friendly, scared/guarded about nothing pups that charge up to you and nearly tackle people nipping and playing. No sound or location sensitivity, No fear or unsureness with things and people, and an intense natural bite/prey response. I like pups that take a grip to their ears from day one and go crazy when stuff is moving and bouncing around. The litter should look like a bunch of cats when I run around with a rag and ball on a string. They also shouldn't freak out about being alone or away from mama or the little pack. I like to see some independant sureness.

You can't really take one test and apply it to get the full idea of a litter. You have to spend time with the litter and have seen other working litters and puppies to compare it to.

Thats my opinion. So are you guys done jumping down Kurse's throat or are you ready to come up with some good answers to the question. I'd like to hear some comments on puppy testing. I have very little experince with it.

I think Kurze's post is hypothetical guys..

Assume the following about me. I've never had a dog...much less a working dog. Key word assume... I think he is looking for the diffrence of a PP puppy over that of one of a sporto dog..in the said tests...

I wish I knew the answer.. I am intrested to see the diffrence... but I think Van Camp has the idea there... you don't do sporto do you Vancamp, your dogs are PP dogs yes?

I appreciate all answers and contributions. If an endeavor can't stand-up to a little scrutiny, then things should indeed be re-thought. I certainly don't consider people protecting the integrity of their passions to be throat-jumping. Not in the least bit. (You should see me in my fitness forums...I'm a coarse, brutish sub-human to be sure!)

However, in my case there is nothing to *re*-think, cuz I haven't even thought (that is, decided upon) anything . So nobody need worry about about some jerk-off going off half-cocked and spoiling someone's reputation or progeny...that jerk-off (not) being me.

The point is, I don't know exactly what I want yet. That's why I'm here. At the moment, this is just pure research for me; not neccesarily (nor currently) applicable to anything.

And Mike, I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but...the name of your kennel (as it stands without a preposition) is grammatically incorrect. That's where I stand on it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

So, about discriminating between litter mates for their respective uses...