My GSD responds quicker and more reliably with hand signals than with voice commands. He hears very well but seems to prefer hand signals. hand and voice commands were taught at the same time as all my dogs have been past and present. My past experience has been mostly with training retrivers, hand signals and whisle commands are an important part of training retrievers. He also does well with whisle commands, even at a long distance I can get him to drop like a brick if I use the hand signal or whisle command. The voice command however is more like do really have to platz or sitz. Are hand signals permitted in schutzhund obedience? he intensly watches me for a hand signal when we are working in obedience, it is almost as he tunes out voice in order not to miss any hand signals.
oh one more thing, recalls are reliable and executed promptly regarless if voice, hand or whisle

Think about how dogs communicate. It is mostly visual. As a result the dog is going to respond better to hand signals because that is a more natural method for them to communicate. Several people recomend not teaching the hand signals until the dog is reliable on the verbal commands for just this reason.

I am not sure if hand signals are allowed in Schutzhund.

very true, but he is the first one in which has done this. Another GSD did not present that problem. i don't think I varied anything with this GSD except that I started training him a little later. I think perhaps going back to basics and not using voice commands at all for now and then once he has become reliable and compliant with voice commands alternate between voice and hand signals. perhaps hand signal should have been taught a little later but it is much easier to teach while you are teaching the down and stit since one is already doing the motions with the hand if you think about it. look at the down when teaching it, look at how the hand is moved while trying to get the pup to lay down or the motion one uses when teaching the pup to sit. the hand signals uses are very similar to those motions done to teach the basic sit and down. It is not that he does not know the voice command for he eventually obeys but it is more like he thinks when given a voice command it is optional to obey, he eventualy obeys (I don't have to repeat the command) but takes his time to do so

Philippe,
When training, what type of corrections were used if any, Or rewards for complying??

as for correction at this time it is purely based on reward for toy or food reward. I have yet to give him a hard correction for not obeing, however he does obey but is very slow about obeying if voice command is used. all I am asking from him is the same speed and reliability in obeing the commands he does with hand sinals when I give voice commands. I try to avoid giving him a correction because he is so resistant to correction and has to be given a very hard correction for it to register. Not sure I am making clear what i am trying to say, I hope so

philippe,
I'm a little confussed with what you wrote

philippe wrote:
I try to avoid giving him a correction because he is so resistant to correction and has to be given a very hard correction for it to register.

I maybe wrong but it's time for a correction, whether he like it or not.

My male GSD knew that when he was getting hand signals that a quick correction was not going to happen.(no hand at end of leash- no quick correction) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like the same problem. I went back to 6ft leash and used prong collar. A couple times he had the balls to challange me.(I kinda like that in a dog) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It didn't take long for him to know who the boss was on leash or off.

It will only get worse if not corrected asap.
We need some more handers and trainers in on this to help. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ah perhaps that is the answer, for I never though of the fact that hand signal would also make it that corrections were not likely to happen.
As for corrections what I was trying to say is that he is were resitant to a correction unless it is a very hard one. he has a very high pain threshold is what the TD has said about him. he is also stubborn as a mule. She also said that with this guy I will have to give him very hard corrections and I should be ready to do so if I wish to remain in control. corrections that would have made my other dogs submit imediately, to him are more like anoying him. I hope that better explains what I was trying to say about corrections. we will go back to basics with a 6 ft lead.

philippe, Are you sure that you don't have an AKITA in GSD clothing! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Good luck, keep us posted. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

nope not an akita, just checked his pedigree. but sometimes I wonder if he is not a lab in GSD clothing for he is such a retrieve maniac and a water maniac

I didn't see anywhere the age on this dog - is he a youngster or adult?

The phenomenon your describing is called overshadowing - when a compound stimulus is presented, the dog always perceives one more strongly than the other, so his association is better with the hand signal than the verbal command. This doesn't sound like a case of "stubborness" or reluctance at all; it is perfectly normal behavior when a compound stimulus is used. Same thing as a handler who gives a litte shoulder twitch when he tells the dog to finish, then in a trial he stands still and says fuss and the dog just sits there and stares at him. Little did he realize that the dog was conditioned to the shoulder shrug, not the command.

Since hand signals are not allowed at all in schutzhund, give your dog the benefit of the doubt that he is simply unsure, and retrain the commands without the hand signals. THEN, if you see no improvement in his performance, you can always step up to correcting him after you're sure he HAS built an association to the commands.