Do a lot of you that train for Sch.,Do aggression in the obedience

Steve C,
That's kind of a confussing question! and neither has anything to do with the other.
Schutzhund Obedience should for all purposes be energetic and fun with the routine in mind. A very clean and percise segment of the trial. The judges look for a dog and handeler that are confident together as a team this is what I learned competing in Europe for 8 years. They like a dog that doesn't look like you put so much compulsion in them that they creep along the field. Not a good image.
Aggression has no place in this segment remember you have a judge maybe several on the field judging, also remember the group routine on leash and off you wouldn't want the dog to get nasty towards these individuals
Keep control in the dog BUT! again keep it entergetic. A good soild team will give you an excellent score for part 1. Hell most of the points I lost in my first few trials were handeler errors DUH! :rolleyes:
Anyway this is only my point of veiw and from experience.
Anyone else have any wisdom feel free to jump in!
Be Safe!

Lewis/Argo and Riley

yeah Steve, I'm kinda confused at this question as well. Care to expand or give an example?

When I say aggression in the obedience, I mean to put the dog in a situation that he knows his job...then put enough stimulis on the animal to make him come way up in drive.. and then use that drive to give the correct response in the obedience.

Here is an example that you might think about:
In protection, you work a young dog in prey. As he matures, when his grips are full and calm and he can take pressure you add defense. When the dog understands how to put prey and defense together you get aggression (fight drive). The dog is much stronger looking in the protection when he is working in aggression.

So back to the question...How many of you do motivational obedience (food or ball) and then when the dog knows his job, put enough stimulis (e-collar, prong, etc...) on the dog to make him come way up in drive to do the work? This way, in a trial situation, instead of looking away or heeling flat because he is distracted and/or might not be interested in the motivator (food or ball) because of the new situation he will not look away out of fear that a fight might break out between you and him.

One more example:
The dog knows that he should be barking in the blind. He stops barking and looks towards a distraction (someone approaching, etc...). Handler quickly pulls his dog out of the blind, helper does hard defense on the dog, then we all go back to work in the blind.

Have I lost anyone yet?

Steve C

No, not lost, but in the first example you are talking about compulsion, or aggression coming from the handler...

not exactly what I would term using "aggression" in obedience. When people in SchH talk about aggression, they are usually referring to the dog, not the handler.

Steve C.
Thanks for explaining!
I have always used motivational methods for obedience!
My Giant Schnauzeer was a high drive dog and lived to make me happy always a show off <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I did use the pinch for short little pops to get her drive pumping and the the ball when I had here attention 100%. She had to be praised vocally if you petted her she would get to excited.
As far as being distracted during a bark and hold I used Kaltenbach(Spelling)method of neuterlization which he showed us when I attended his seminar at our club in Germany. It drove my do
off the scale in drive and paying attention to the decoy.So when I poped her a little in obedience training she was put in to a higher drive and more entergetic through the routine.
Hoped this helped!

Lewis/Argo and Riley

Originally posted by Steve C:
How many of you do motivational obedience (food or ball) and then when the dog knows his job, put enough stimulis (e-collar, prong, etc...) on the dog to make him come way up in drive to do the work? This way, in a trial situation, instead of looking away or heeling flat because he is distracted and/or might not be interested in the motivator (food or ball) because of the new situation he will not look away out of fear that a fight might break out between you and him. If you've done part 1 CORRECTLY , the dog is already in his highest drive and looking away/being distracted/being flat is long since gone. No need or desire to add part 2, which puts the dog into avoidance mode - that's not aggression, that's fear, and not desireable.

From your post's I think that what you are descibing is pressure training, not drive so to speak. When the dog is performing without stress from the handler eg. heeling for a ball without any force, that is a dog working for his ball, not for fear or respect from his handler. He is complying with the handler for his ball.

After that when the dog stops performing for the ball (or whatever) and gets distracted, or starts to over load in drive, or does not heel correctly, then you use corrections. This is what I think you are describing as aggression. This is almost always going to have to take place when training. The learning phase comes first, and then the proofing phase which involves corrections. Now maybe by corecting the dog,(if you over correct or if his nerves are narrow) he channels that pain from the correction into his desire for getting his prey item, and thus wanting to fight, his prey, but that would be the only way I would see aggression or defense trying to play a part in training ob.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lewis R. Fronk:
Steve C.
Thanks for explaining!
I have always used motivational methods for obedience!
My Giant Schnauzeer was a high drive dog and lived to make me happy always a show off <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I did use the pinch for short little pops to get her drive pumping and the the ball when I had here attention 100%. She had to be praised vocally if you petted her she would get to excited.
As far as being distracted during a bark and hold I used Kaltenbach(Spelling)method of neuterlization which he showed us when I attended his seminar at our club in Germany. It drove my do
off the scale in drive and paying attention to the decoy.So when I poped her a little in obedience training she was put in to a higher drive and more entergetic through the routine.
Hoped this helped!

Lewis/Argo and Riley

Kaltenbach's theory is one of complusion to channel drive and create focus. He uses the promg (and alot of times the sharp-prong) to make the dog feel the pinch and thus it creates pain or discomfort and the dog is to channel that towards the decoy creating an image of aggression and drive. It can be effective. While there is a teaching phase without stress his proofing phase in protection involves alot of stress. His ob. is a different animal all together though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Michael, you're in the kitchen but your not cooking just yet.

Sch3FH2, So you're saying all you train with is prey in protection?