After some serious videotaping and close observation of my cart dog in training, Calvin, we realized why he'd refuse to move when hitched to the wagon unless Hobbes was necklined to him even if Hobbes was only standing there attached to him by a coupler so they stood collar to collar but not to the wagon itself, meaning Hobbes couldn't help him pull. As long as Hobbes was beside him, Calvin would pull like a dream but by himself, he'd stand there whining with his tail wagging like what do I do?, after he heard the "Hike" command. Apparently he'd hadn't learned how to get throw his weight forward in the harness to get it started but was fine after he'd get it going, so today I decided to teach him.
I harnessed him up not to our usual wagon but to the training (radio flyer) red wagon instead and as I said "Hike", I lured his nose down and foreward with a treat in my hand so he'd automatically put his weight against the breastband of the harness. Then took a few steps backward and he followed me,so I praised him and gave him his snack. Then as I turned so that he'd be by my side instead of in front of me, (still going backwards) He nosed me hard and I tripped and fell scrapping my knee on the aspalt. I lost the other treat in my hand which bounced to the right which Calvin followed, running me over in the process, then continued trotting down the alise in the trailer court. I got to my feet and told him to "whoa" which he did so I could collect him calmly. Then he looks at me with dancing eyes and wagging tail that says he was so proud of himself. The beauty of it was that everytime on our walk after that, he throw his weight foreward at "hike" when asked to.

Lol, well at least he got the gist of it and learned from it. Go Calvin!

 Quote: Dawna Provancial

After some serious videotaping and close observation of my cart dog in training, Calvin, we realized why he'd refuse to move when hitched to the wagon unless Hobbes was necklined to him even if Hobbes was only standing there attached to him by a coupler so they stood collar to collar but not to the wagon itself, meaning Hobbes couldn't help him pull. As long as Hobbes was beside him, Calvin would pull like a dream but by himself, he'd stand there whining with his tail wagging like what do I do?, after he heard the "Hike" command. Apparently he'd hadn't learned how to throw his weight forward in the harness to get it started .

Really interesting to read this since this is often the same problem young driving horses experience when learning to pull a cart! What I am wondering though is what was Calvin doing when Hobbes was standing necklined but not attached to the cart.....Did Calvin step forward with Hobbes on the "hike" command then?

When you start training in harness do you use tires?

I think that video is such a great way to actually see what is going on- it must have been great to analyze the video and readdress what you were doing based on your findings! I am guessing that in this case you didn't mind the scrapes and bruises!!

Edited by Lisabet Measures (02/02/2012 07:01 AM)
Edit reason: typo

 Quote: Lisabet Measures

 Quote: Dawna Provancial

After some serious videotaping and close observation of my cart dog in training, Calvin, we realized why he'd refuse to move when hitched to the wagon unless Hobbes was necklined to him even if Hobbes was only standing there attached to him by a coupler so they stood collar to collar but not to the wagon itself, meaning Hobbes couldn't help him pull. As long as Hobbes was beside him, Calvin would pull like a dream but by himself, he'd stand there whining with his tail wagging like what do I do?, after he heard the "Hike" command. Apparently he'd hadn't learned how to throw his weight forward in the harness to get it started .

Really interesting to read this since this is often the same problem young driving horses experience when learning to pull a cart! What I am wondering though is what was Calvin doing when Hobbes was standing necklined but not attached to the cart.....Did Calvin step forward with Hobbes on the "hike" command then?

When you start training in harness do you use tires?

I think that video is such a great way to actually see what is going on- it must have been great to analyze the video and readdress what you were doing based on your findings! I am guessing that in this case you didn't mind the scrapes and bruises!!

It's nice to know that it's common probelm,but yes, as long as Hobbes was there to show him what to do, he'd step foreward but it didn't seem to click with his brain what needed to be done as Hobbes most of the time was wiggling the load and then Calvin'd join in a second or two later to keep it moving. I'm guessing that since they were connected both at the halti and than at the collar, Calvin was just copying Hobbes without realizing why they did it this way.
Yes, I start with flat bike tires and graduate to a car tire or I did before they mysteriously disappeared. And this time, I don't mind the scrapes and bruises one bit. I'm going to have to get a better camera though, so I can use it inside as well, but it is nice to actually since and pinpoint the exact cause from different angles so I can deal with it.

 Quote: Dawna Provancial

as long as Hobbes was there to show him what to do, he'd step foreward but it didn't seem to click with his brain what needed to be done...

When the horses are trained in harness we have to spend a lot of time so that they understand several verbal commands before they are hitched; this is usually accomplished by long reining. The horse must have a solid, "stand", "walk on", "trot" "back" and "whoa" before hitching. When the horse is hitched to a cart, the tricky part of getting on and off the cart depends completely on the horse knowing these commands!

The "walk on" from the stand when pulling is really quite tough until the horse has developed the right muscles, and gradually learns to adjust his posture to give the maximum ergonomic pull!

It's neat to see the similarities between dogs and horses when pulling!

I have been using a small JVC Everio camcorder which I got because it was the best low lux camera in the price range. The indoor recordings were really quite good. I am just about to upgrade though because I am doing so much ....but I will definitely use the same criteria for the camera selection...low lux efficacy.

 Quote: Lisabet Measures

When the horses are trained in harness we have to spend a lot of time so that they understand several verbal commands before they are hitched; this is usually accomplished by long reining. The horse must have a solid, "stand", "walk on", "trot" "back" and "whoa" before hitching. When the horse is hitched to a cart, the tricky part of getting on and off the cart depends completely on the horse knowing these commands!



It's neat to see the similarities between dogs and horses when pulling!

Yes, it is neat to the similarites between dogs and horses when pulling as some of the best advice I got when trying to train Hobbes came from a retired horse trainer. He told me to start light, increase weight slowly and never rush advancement. He said it was better to be accused of babying Hobbes because I was going so slowly instead of rushing things and possibly really hurting him by makeing him do too much too soon.

What do mean by long reining? I might do something similar as I have to teach a few command as well, hike, whoa, left, right, on by, over left/right and back up.

 Quote: Lisabet Measures

When the horses are trained in harness we have to spend a lot of time so that they understand several verbal commands before they are hitched; this is usually accomplished by long reining. The horse must have a solid, "stand", "walk on", "trot" "back" and "whoa" before hitching. When the horse is hitched to a cart, the tricky part of getting on and off the cart depends completely on the horse knowing these commands!



It's neat to see the similarities between dogs and horses when pulling!

Yes, it is neat to the similarites between dogs and horses when pulling as some of the best advice I got when trying to train Hobbes came from a retired horse trainer. He told me to start light, increase weight slowly and never rush advancement. He said it was better to be accused of babying Hobbes because I was going so slowly instead of rushing things and possibly really hurting him by makeing him do too much too soon.

What do mean by long reining? I might do something similar as I have to teach a few command as well, hike, whoa, left, right, on by, over left/right and back up.

Long reining with horses uses long reins (as opposed to short reins) going to the bit or noseband with the driver/whip walking a distance behind or to the side of the horse. Cues are given with the reins, verbally, and with the whip (used as an extension of the hand or substitute for the leg, not as a weapon).

It sounds as though you got some excellent advice from your horse trainer about not rushing things because pulling is physically demanding work.

For long reining horses we typically use reins or lines that are about 28ft in length. You can steer the horse in the same way as a rider would but you are on the ground. Typically you would stand at least a horse length behind the horse, but often you work from the side, much as your video showed you walking with the lines in your hand next to the cart. Much of this work is combined with dragging a tire so that there is some weight involved and the action of pulling is incorporated but this need not be so, it depends on what you are working on and what you want to achieve. If you are going to apply these techniques I would think that your current harness set up and your lines would be fine but you would not hitch to the cart. Try it out and see what might need adjusting.

This technique worked really for Calvin and Hobbes, espeically in getting them to move togather like one dog instead of one of them pulling the other one around a little. First I worked with Calvin by himself as he always tries to look back to see where I am. I put my shorter lines on him as he was attached to my belt with a 4 ft leash which I clipped to his harness. The goal simply being that he would realize that I would continue to use my voice and the lines to communicate with him so he wouldn't keep looking for my location as well as give him plenty of left turn practice. I also thought it would increase his confidence on walking ahead of me while he's wearing his harness. He did well but still needs work so I'll continue to turn walk time into training time. Then we worked with Hobbes and they both did better as Calvin is really starting to get that a tug on the side of his Halti means that he should turn toward it not away from it. With Calvin, my goal is better reconinition of the various commands while with Hobbes it is maintance to finetuning. Maybe I'll have them "parade ready" by fall. I hope so at least.