Hi guys,

all has been well in the karsouny household. A plan had been there for while.
mom takes Karly (2y 3months male GSD) out in the mornings, i in the afternoon.
Then one day come a month ago where karly chased a cat and made mom fall head first on the floor which made me take the reins and walk him mornings and evenings. Now she takes care of feeding him and combing him.

Everything was great till i couldnt make it for the afternoon walk which had my sister volunteer to do it. Mom went with her but wasnt keeping up with sis. She got tired and went home and kept sis and Karly alone for about 3 minutes where he automatically panicked and started mushing home dragging sis along.

When they got home, apparently some sort of dynamic changed. I came after an hour or so to find some weird body language in karly. Whenever he got a bit close to my sister or she adressed him, the hair on his back got way up and he growled at her. She passing by next to him (standing up). He then tried to jump on her trying to bite her. Here s where i intervened and unconsciously kicked him in the chest.
I then got the leash to have it around him to be able to correct or restrain if something else happened.

My sister sat down and i tried to get him close to her. he growled again and jumped in rage at her. I corrected fiercely at the jump.
Problem is, a couple of days passed. And Karly now shakes at the fact of seing sis get close to him and runs away any time she comes. Today got worse. Karly is afraid of my mom and wont come into the kitchen to eat or be around her. She cant clean his mouth, comb him, do anything. He s always trying to hang by next to me when am here and keeps his distance at all times when am not.

Weirdly enough, he did play with mom as well today. with sis yesterday. when i wasnt here.
It s as if me coming here is causing his scare.

1. what to do?! this can completely ruin the dynamic at home.
i m really afraid that he attacks any of them.
2. do you think K is associating my being at home with mom or sis causes him to expect a giant correction thus making him afraid of interacting with them?

other things to consider:
By the way, he also gets uncomfortable around children.
I also travelled 2months october-december and mom took care of him all the way. so he s obviously very attached and usually comfortable around her; in between her legs when they re hanging out. However he treats sis more as a constant guest, plays with her from time to time but not more than that + she never takes him out or helps out in any of the grooming, feeding etc...

There are no professionals around here and it s making me panic since this is an urgent and severe matter. Especially that I work double shifts and am only at home in for 30mins in the morning and at 4-6 PM.

Help!

Thanks

Dear Michael-
I can't help you much with training as I am not a trainer, but I am glad to see you back on the forum, I have wondered how Karly turned out, he had such trouble with diet as a pup.
I bet Karly needs a ton more exercise and rules. Perhaps you could hire a young fellow, a student perhaps, to walk, exercise him everyday-for MUCH longer time than he has been having.
It sounds like he has taken to running the show, dangerous for a working dog, scary for your Mom and Sister.
I wish you the best and am certain real trainers on the Forum will be able to help you.

1. He needs never to be around children, period. (You probably know that.)

2. I'm reading about 10% or less of the structured exercise he needs .... a disaster in the making, IMO.

How old is sister?

I don't understand this: My sister sat down and i tried to get him close to her.

How old is the dog?

"being at home with mom or sis causes him to expect a giant correction" Why?

Who trains the dog? When? What method, how often?

Is NILIF practiced consistently?




eta
You do need professional help, IMO. The above is advice and questions for while you find it.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (02/08/2012 12:54 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Hey Connie,

good to be back, even though it s on bad circumstances.

sorry for the delay in answering. crisis still isnt averted but i managed to get a professional check up on the problem and it was clear to him that it was a leadership problem.

To answer your questions:
- Karly s 2.5years old now
- I tried to get karly close to see how he d react (wrong move not knowing how i shouldve corrected)
- sister is old. 37. but karly hasnt had a aggressive reaction toward her in a while. same for my mom. he just barely growls at them now and obeys their command when the tell him to sit or go to his place to divert his attention
- I train him. he s still in on leash training. NILIF is consistent with me and not with the rest of the family who doesnt want to put the effort.

According to the professional, we havent been good pack leaders to him (given him too much freedom: ie. he s allowed on the couch, he prompts my mom to play and gets his way with it etc...) I thought i was being a good pack leader but he pointed out a lot of mistakes with my handling which i m working on right now.

In all cases, he says that Karly s confused since he had a lot of freedom so he didnt mind growling to get his way but got startled when we surprised him by correcting him very harshly.

He suggested we divert his attention when he growls and give him a command and wait for him to calm down then release him.
I ve been walking him differently and he s not allowed to play wiht his toys all the time, he s corrected if he jumps on us but he s not leashed in the house yet.

one thing i m concerned about though. he s a charm on walks lately. Not very happy with all the extra constraints but gets petted after a command – doesnt seem very happy about it... (i thought i d instill some confidence by showing him that i dont wanna mistreat him)

however, once we get back home, he stands far away from me, is afraid to take any command and growls as soon as i approach him.

XX when that happens i try to put him in a sit position but he doesnt comply and keeps growling. then if he does sit in the end he starts shaking like crazy and i wait till he calms down and release him.

I think i did a mistake though today when i tried to pet him when he sat down as a good boy. he lunged at me and i slapped him in the face as a reflex then put him back in sit.

questions:
- it s clear that m dealing with fear aggression here but dont seem to understand why the fear comes at home.
- what do i do when the dog does comply to my command after he starts growling (is a NO followed by a correction plausible here? i understood that correcting a growl is a bit tricky)
- should i have a leash on him at all times so i can correct him if he tries to lunge or bite? (i obviously have to remain calm here and it s not been very easy)
- should i muzzle him or is this if things get worse?

ps. true professionals here are extremely tied up training police dogs and whatnot and barely pick up their phones. it s practically impossible to reach them. the rest are people that train dogs in an oldschool punishment method which i m against. One "professional" told me to "keep hitting the dog till he stops growling to show him who s boss". (i m in beirut, animal cruelty is still non punishable by law – you actually get a fine of 6$ for torturing/killing a dog, just so you know why i mainly rely on you guys)


I m going to watch the groundwork for pack structure and see what i can take out of it too.

As for the exercise i was thinking of buying a bike to get him to follow me around and get drained. Any suggestions and comments on that? – i live in the city; maybe a treadmill can do the trick too.

Thanks

I'm mainly bumping this, but also asking if he is on leash ALWAYS. The answer should be yes.

"I m going to watch the groundwork for pack structure and see what i can take out of it too. "

Do you know plain ol' NILIF? Can everyone but you be excluded from interaction with this dog for the time being? (If not, I don't think you are going to have success. JMO.) (".. the rest of the family ... doesnt want to put the effort. ")


"it s clear that m dealing with fear aggression here but dont seem to understand why the fear comes at home. " Maybe because that's where he has been kicked in the chest and hit in the face? And I have a feeling that "weird dynamic" with sister had some kind of violence involved, right? "Karly now shakes at the fact of seing sis get close to him and runs away any time she comes."

Why would you "test" this dog with people he's panicked around trying to get close, or with you petting him when he reacts so badly? No tests!

I'd take over the dog's care and exercise myself, I'd definitely stop hitting him in the face. Stop putting him in the position of failure and you won't have to hit, kick, etc.

"I tried to get karly close to see how he d react (wrong move not knowing how i shouldve corrected) " Wrong move, PERIOD. Stop doing tests!

JMO!

I hope others see this soon, too. You need to change the way you live with this dog.

What kind of basic ob training are you doing, BTW? Sorry if this was covered ..... I didn't go back to prior threads.

How much exercise is he getting now (structured, moving-right-along exercise)?

Connie, i admit it.

yeah the test thing was wrong. i completely admit it.
i thought i d get him close to give him a high level correction to teach him not to growl. that was my first instinct. clearly i was wrong. it got out of hand as i didnt anticipate an out of control reaction and didnt know what to do. my kicking wasnt premeditated as i respect my dog and would never do that consciously. NO MORE TESTS!

I have the dvd. i borrowed it from a friend so great idea. i m practically going to finish it in a bit and will post my questions soon.

I do understand NILIF. Here s how things are so far.
- i didnt put him in the crate to begin pack structure but he s always been calm submssive in it and just sits there quietly (would that be a sign to not put him in all together?)
- karly is free in the house but he doesnt run and act stupid.
- he is not leashed but no one interacts with him
- he is corrected with a no if he barks at the door or on passerby and shuts up and backs off
- my family agreed to help and just not to interact with him at all (pretend he s non existent)
- my mom feeds him after i leave for work after i walk him. Should i be the one to put his food bowl down? (he eats in the kitchen and sits before he eats, food is down for 20mins and is removed)


"I'd take over the dog's care and exercise myself"
the problem is that i m at work all day and just can walk him in the morning for 30mins and at 5pm for about an hour. so karly s practically at home with my mom for the whole day and night (i sleep in the floor above).
QUESTION: he s calm when at home and doesnt bite on anything. doesnt prompt us to play or anything. and at night he just sleeps on the floor (in a random location). do i have to crate him altogether then? or put him in it at night?

(I m the one who does the grooming although i havent ever since the new incident but i m going to start doing it gradually)

his attitude toward me
Karly doesnt wag his tail around me and doesnt even approach me till he knows we re going out – and it s just like he s excited to get out not that we re gonna have quality time.

my suggested solution
I think i m gonna keep our aloof walks for a minimum of a week where he just gets corrected for leash pulling and gets a couple of sit commands to get out of the house.
He gets put on a long leash to do his business in the parking lot then goes on a 6ft leash for the walk.
He s not allowed to mark his territory anymore and reacts calmly to my "no" when he attempt to.
The "good boys" he gets are aloof with barely any touching for now.
I m going to start doing 3-4 5 minute training marker sessions with treats to make our interactions fun. No play or petting till further notice.
Then i ll have some "good boys" with a kind praising voice bit by bit.
THEN i ll pet gradually.
THEN i ll include a toy (no tugs yet although he does out but doesnt fetch always – just comes my direction sometimes or just runs away all excited when i used to say bring)

does all that make sense? what are the things you think i lack (crating, feeding?, something else?)


Thanks guys

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

What kind of basic ob training are you doing, BTW? Sorry if this was covered ..... I didn't go back to prior threads.

How much exercise is he getting now (structured, moving-right-along exercise)?

1/ 7:30am 25minute walk around the neighborhood to do his business and stretch his legs. with some mild jogging and sometimes sprinting to break the monotony – now it s more aloof though, muuch less interaction

2/ 5:30pm, 1hour
- 20-40mins on the roof or in the house if it s raining.
marker training and play depending on intensity of workout (basic commands: sit, down, lie down, stay, come, hop (on top of boxes), place, fetch, tug, out, where is it (hiding toy)
- 10-20 minute walk around the neighborhood after he gets tired with the training to do his business (i take him out to play an hour before he has to go)

NOW however, we re just doing 30minute aloof walks in the afternoon till the interaction starts getting better again.

by the way, we used to have an amazing bond before the incident.
aka i m the center of his world, wagging his tail like crazy when i m around and enjoying every second of it.
he used to show me a lot of respect and hang on every word i said.

*sigh

Good morning Michel,

I've followed this thread and have come to these conclusions or observations. There seems to me to have been some intervening event or events that were 'traumatic' to the dog.

It seems to me some of the behavior is fear but it seems to me to be a fear stimulated by some kind of abuse, perhaps some continuing abuse.

In my limited experience, a dog doesn't go from tail wagging to aloof without some thing going wrong in the dog's environment.

Some thing in the dog's world is no longer fun, and it seems to me it is a reinforced behavior.

I have never had a dog that went from good interaction to poor interaction without some thing or some one introducing a continuing counter productive influence.

You variously describe a dog that enjoyed interaction to one that avoids it.

Your responsibility though this merely states the obvious, is to care for and protect your dog. That it has changed an engaging behavior with you to aloof is a signal to me that it doesn't see you as its protecting leader. I probably didn't do a great job of describing what I am trying to.

Start over. Establish rules for working with the dog with other family members. Open your eyes and evaluate the attitudes of other family members and determine if their behavior is hostile to the dog. As you noted, you are not always home. If there is a person who doesn't like the dog, create a line.

You have to regain the dog's 'trust' because it seems to me it has been lost. There is a delta for me when it comes to following a command, and following a command willingly and with enthusiasm. Your dog should happily hang on your every word well, most of them, at least. Some thing happened.

You have to take a bunch of steps back and re-start, I think. Re-start walks; gently re-work all the basic commands, lots of praise, lots of patience. Always insert yourself between the dog and any unwanted influence. Make sure the home environment reinforces your efforts.

Some thing or things happened in the dog's world. You may not find out what happened but you have to prevent stuff from happening - to state the obvious. You can't train and re-establish a relationship if there is a source of confusion or worse in the dog's world.

I'm pleased if one of my dogs likes other family members and friends but there are those I do not leave alone with my dogs. My dogs, my rules, my responsibility. And I am not anxious to have my dogs interact with children - though they are well socialized - because some thing can go wrong in a heartbeat. Frankly, they are my dogs and people have to follow my rules for dealing with them.

Start over. No easy fix for regaining a dog's confidence.