Hi,

First, I’d like to say that I purchased and loved Mike’s 3 part e collar seminar. I watched it probably 3 times total. Great stuff, I hope one day we can also see Mike actually work with the collar. Also, sorry for such a long and boring post, but I figure other people may have the exact same problem.

I have a pet labrador retriever with some ball chewing problems. I play fetch with him a lot, about 2 hours a day for the past 8 months. He loves the game, it’s all just for fun and no force has been used up until recently. Thing is, I am having more and more troubles with him letting the ball go – the more retrieves he does the harder it is for him to give the ball. He starts chewing on it it harder and harder as we play and is hesitant to let it go. He’s perfect in fetching it... I had him fetch the ball in most unusual places and under high distractions, he’s over that, but he seems to get more possessive of the ball and soon enters into a self-satisfying chewing trance. This affects the whole game. He’d still let it go but only after some 5 to 10 seconds of really intensive last few bites. Seeing as I throw it about 200 times a day it gets annoying having to wait for this ordeal of his. People’s advises on this are usually to just stop the game because the dog is not cooperating.

Being somewhat experienced with an e collar I decided to, well... make him cooperate. So finally I’ve decided to nick him with an e collar for not letting the ball immediately... And I’m not sure if this is the right path. I’d say NO (I always do this) and nick him. Now, I could get 20, or I could get 100 clean reps – depends on his mood I guess. Next time he does it: same thing happens, he gets corrected. Again, I’d get lots of clean reps, drive intact, game continues as if nothing happened. Problem is, this is going on for 4 days now and every day I’d have to nick him at least once to get the point across. I’m not sure what path to take from here. If I keep the same level of stim I could end up nagging him forever and I don’t want to turn it up until I’m 100% sure I know what I’m doing. Which is where I’d need your advice… Is it completely wrong to correct “release” behaviour this way? Should I continue this path? So far I didn’t kill his drive, he still goes into teeth clicking trance if I show him the ball. A meteor can fall next to us and he’d be fixated on the ball... definitely no avoidance issues so far. Still though, I was reluctant to use an e collar for something as basic as spitting a ball out of his mouth… apparently it works, but it doesn’t mean I’m doing it right so here I am asking for help.

People would generally tell me that I’m not going to accomplish anything if I force the dog to do something and that it is monstrous to use implements of destruction on the dog such as shock collar but frankly he seems to be enjoying the game. I also believe that not spitting out any item immediately on command is a respect related issue but then again I could be wrong, it wouldn’t be the first time...

Before this, I only used e collar for recalls and occasionally for basic pack rules like not lunging on the leash. I had great success with it, no avoidance issues, no fallout, no "collar-wise" stuff. I am extremely careful when using it which is probably why I'm even posting this.

Have you read any of the retrieve threads here? (I ask so we don't "retype the wheel." )

Nope, I will now. The way I trained my retrieve was some simple backchaining with food. I'd fade out the food eventually but after several days of exercise the chewing problem shows its ugly face again. I used the "two balls" game as well but he'd still give it a proper chew ritual just before the out. Once he starts the chew (after say 10 retrieves), only thing I can really do (other than correction) is stop the game because I can't use the food when he's running so much.

Ok, reading through the forums now I see I'll have a lot of work to do on him actually holding the ball correctly... (sorry for double post)

Does he act this way for every toy or just a ball? If not, than you may want to back track and use a lesser rewarding toy to teach him the out. Once he learns a clean out then you can use the e-collar for reinforcement.

His only other toy is a tug and I have no problems with it, if I throw it he'll bring it to me to play and he outs immediately on command. Then again he never gets so worked up with it as he does with the ball.

I've read other retrieve threads and seems like I'll have to re-do pretty much the whole retrieve process.

Why do you throw the ball 200 times a day for him?

Perhaps if you didn't play to the point where he was over the top, then the issue would go away.

What I would do is incorporate OB and nose games into the fetch sessions to make him slow down and think about what he's doing then get rewarded with a short fetch session as opposed to just throwing the ball. Hide a few balls and have him use his nose to find them then when he brings back each ball that he finds, reward him with a couple throws.

Mara, thanks for reply. I do make him search for the ball, especially when we're playing at night. I do obedience work in between, he has to sit, lie down, come or heel to get the ball. There's also stuff like sit in motion, down in motion, finding the ball on command, working around obstacles etc. He often swims for it as well. I use it as a reward quite often. I used to play the search game with multiple balls but not as much recently. The number 200 was just a guesstimate but I definitely throw that thing a lot for him, perhaps too much as you suggested.

Chewing could also be a coping mechanism for over excitement, pressure, stress or just about anything and he was never taught the "proper" way to hold the ball. Therefore he could easily become addicted to the ball chewing which leads to outing problem. I'm thinking on teaching him just to hold the ball and then back chain the whole retrieve as if he's never done it before. I'll definitely stop correcting him and instead try and make a pause when he really starts chewing it.

"He starts chewing on it it harder and harder as we play and is hesitant to let it go".

Quite possible the dog just overloads on the game. Try not to get him overly excited and use short throws with no searching for the ball.
Marker train a solid hold and the out without initially throwing the ball.
Keep the sessions very short. Time wise and distance wise when you do start the retrieve game again.
Another option
Does the dog like to play tug? You can control the chewing that way because you have constant tension on the tug.

Play 2 ball. He runs back to you, make him sit, he sees the other ball, say out then throw the other ball right in his mouth, do this a few hundred times and the dog will spitting the ball out at you