We live in the country on 3 acres of land and have 3 boys (ages 7, 3 & 1) and 2 dogs. Our dogs were both "drop offs" that we adopted. One is a german shepherd mix and the other a pit bull or terrier mix. They are free to run within their invisible fence yard and they don't ever come inside. They have been great with our kids. We haven't done hardly any training with them and I know we have not established a clear pack structure. Pretty much the only thing we've put out effort to train them in was to leave our chickens alone. They killed and ate 7 or so of our hens several years back, but they learned well. Now our 23 chickens free range wherever they please and the dogs haven't touched them in almost 2 years.

In any case, I was planning to take this summer to focus on training the dogs and I had planned to do this with our 7 year old. I thought it would be a good learning experience for him too. So, I've ordered Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Pet and Basic Obedience Training and I read the article on Ground Work. Now I have questions.

The Ground Work article mentions the social isolation phase when starting with a new adult dog. Is this something we should do (sort of starting over from scratch) with established family pets? Also in Ground Work, it mentions not letting children handle the dog. How does that work? Does this mean I shouldn't involve my 7 year old in training the dogs? Does it mean that none of the children should "play" with the dogs? Finally, what equipment do we need to get? Choke collars? Clickers?

I'm not intending to take the dogs to competitions or anything. I just want well behaved family pets/farm dogs.

Thank you so much!

They live outside and are going to continue to live outside?

Do the children now play with the dogs?

Do they have any obedience at all? For example, do they come when called?

"Pretty much the only thing we've put out effort to train them in was to leave our chickens alone. "

How did you do that?


What is the main problem? I'm guessing that there is something happening that has triggered a new training plan, after years of none? I know you will get help; I'm trying to get a handle on what your goals are.

Looking back a few years, I found this: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=20804&page=1#210407

I'm linking it here because it gives some more background.

Yes, that's me, Connie. So embarrassing that I'm back here after years and not really anything changed... I did work with Scamper some when he was a puppy. Then there was a loss in the family, followed by two babies and I just didn't make it happen. In the mean time the pit bull (an adult dog) was dropped off or strayed onto our place, and our son fell in love with him. He immediately became the dominant dog.

Our dogs do live outside and will continue to live outside, with the exception of being let into the mud room on cold nights.

The children don't rough house with the dogs, but they do put the dogs on leashes sometimes and lead them around the yard or just pet them and love on them.

The dogs do come when called, but not as quickly or consistently as I'd like. They obey when I tell them to get off the porch or if I say "no". We also trained them about their invisible fence boundary.

The chicken killing was really the pit bull, Flower's, idea. So we only had to train him. Scamper followed his lead. After the chicken killing happened, my husband put Flower and a dead chicken in a large plastic tub and carried them out past our invisible fence boundary, causing Flower to get shocked by his electric prong collar. Then he tied the chicken (in a feed bag) under Flower's chin for a day or two. We all ignored Flower during this time. Whatever one may think of the methods used, it was successful.

We don't have any particularly new behavior problems. Things I would like to see improved are: Not pushing into people to get petted and jumping around their feet (especially visitors), Sitting, staying and coming on command. More than that would be nice, but not necessary.

Thank you, Connie, for responding. I really appreciate you taking your time.

In the farm world I live in I am used to seeing dogs who live outdoors.

I am no sort of trainer, but I think you could begin with some marker training , just teaching that "YES!" means this is what I want you to do. Any dog can learn to sit quietly, and that a reward will come from it.
I think you are going to have to work with one dog at a time, somehow.

What Betty said! marker training. Start like they were pups and know nothing. Train each dog separately and, at this time, don't let the kids (to young) give any commands.
I think you got lucky with the dead chicken around the neck method. The one dog (JRT) that I saw that method used on thought she was the queen bee with the worlds best smelling necklace. She strutted around proudly with that very ripe dead chicken on her neck.

Me three on the marker training for the goals you have of "Not pushing into people to get petted and jumping around their feet (especially visitors), Sitting, staying and coming on command."

In fact, "not" doing stuff is usually well served by training a "doing stuff" command that you use as fallback to the unwanted behavior. (A dog who sits on command is not jumping on someone while he is complying with "sit," for example. But there can be any "visitor" behavior you want there to be.)

Tell us if you know anything about marker training.

Also, yes, each dog is worked with separately.

PS

I forgot the collar question. I'd just get flat collars and regular 6' leashes for training, and a long line (for when you work on the recall). If you aren't sure exactly what I mean, let me/us know.



ETA
And the clicker -- that's up to you. Lots of marker trainers use a verbal marker, lots use a clicker, and many use both.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (04/10/2012 10:10 AM)
Edit reason: eta

I know nothing about marker training. When you mention using a verbal marker, do you mean praising the dog? Should I get the DVD on marker training, or are the basics covered Basic Obedience?

Should we put the dogs in social isolation for a period of time before training, the same as if we were getting an adult dog for the first time? Or jump straight into marker training?

Would it be OK for my boys to help feed and walk the dogs, but not give commands?

No, I don't mean praising the dog ... I mean a special word that you might choose in lieu of a clicker.

I can't really see any way to do the social isolation period, or even what you'd be aiming for, really, with your free-roaming dogs (for years) who will never live inside and who, as a very experienced trainer mentioned to me when we emailed about this thread, may not view you and your family as "their pack" in any significant way, even though they sound pretty social.

You have a situation that isn't exactly what most training protocols are really addressing, but that can take huge advantage of marker training for the behaviors you want. You'll notice that even the farm-dog person who replied went straight to marker work for you.

My advice would be to get this http://leerburg.com/markers.htm DVD, the very first and most basic of all the marker videos, and actually very reasonably priced, and watch it. While marker training is touched on in Basic Ob, so much of Basic Ob is about living with the dog. Your way of living with the dog is a little different, again, from what most "house manners, pack structure" protocols are addressing. This is JMO.

But the Marker DVD is specifically about training wanted behaviors, and IMO using the very best method around.

All JMO. I'm interested to read others' takes on this.