moved from a food thread:

 Quote: Jeffrey Hill

Just finished off lead training with Heidi, she passed the local course here on her first try so I am pretty happy with her right now. The local k9 training place is going to put her through an evaluation in a few weeks to test her nerves for protection training. While I have tried to expose her to as many new situations as possible, what else could I be doing in the meantime to really solidify her nerves?

How solid are her nerves now? Bad nerves are something I would never consider in a dog that was going to be trained in protection work.
Unscrupulous trainers can and will take those bad nerves and convince someone that the dog is great for protection. It's easy enough to fire up many weak nerved dogs to make it look like they are being "protective".

Quote Jeffrey Hill "alright I might hold back then a few weeks and wait until after she gets back from the k9 place, that way I will have a couple months to get her all the way on raw, and every once in awhile honest kitchen so she can be fed that during her stays."

Is this dog being SENT AWAY for training? Maybe I misunderstood your saying ..when she gets back. And talking about furture stays there. ??? If that is the case ....it is a VERY BAD idea. I would NEVER send a dog away to be trained. EVER....especially for ANY kind of protection work! You will have no say or clue as to what is being done to your dog. I want to be there EVERY step of my dogs' training...not clued in later as to what to do with the already so-called trained dog.

If they want to take & keep your dog to train her...I'd be very suspecious of their methods if they don't want you present for the training from begining to end. But that's just me. There are very few people, thru the years that I have worked dogs with, that have earned my trust & respect enough...that I would leave my dogs with let alone alow to work with them.

Re-read what Bob said about some trainers making unsuitable dogs look like great candidates for the work, when in fact that is the last kind of work they should be doing. There are plenty of these kinds out there suckering up folks hard earned $$$ & ruining their dogs. Be VERY careful.

Sorry that was worded a little goofy, I am pretty fried this time of year.

I am going to be out of town for 10 days and the place where we train will board and train her while I am out of town. I love these trainers, every time I pick my dog up she looks beyond happy. I would never leave my dog with anyone else period.

Her nerves are typically pretty solid. She gets skittish if she knocks something down really loud, but typically its because she thinks she did something wrong, but it is usually less than a second before she turns back to examine the source of this loud noise. Every once in awhile she gets a little barrier frustration on a windy day and her hair raises up.

They do their evaluations in two parts, one without the owner present, and one with just to gauge the differences in the dogs reaction.

Some dogs might be inclined to be a little more docile, especially those that are used to having their trainer take care of any threat (e.g. aggressive dogs) and might show a better response on their own or vice versa, or maybe just flat out responds perfectly the first go around. It makes sense to me, but as always I love your thoughts.

They are pretty strict on what dogs they will train for protection, which is why I am wanting to do everything I can beforehand to make sure Heidi is on her top game before I drop her off.

I'm looking forward to reading the actual helpful replies that I'm sure you'll get. Here's one that probably isn't:

I wouldn't say she's skittish for starting at a loud noise, especially if she's turning around in under a second and checking it out. Heck, I jump at surprising, loud noises and I think my nerves are pretty stable.

I wonder if skittish means she absolutely bolts and you have to hold her back? Or does it mean she starts, gets to her feet and looks around quickly? What does that "skittish" behavior look like?

 Quote:

But typically it's because she thinks she did something wrong

This seems atypical to me. Has she been corrected or yelled at when a loud noise occurs? Has she been castigated for knocking things over in the past? You certainly know your dog better than me, but that seems like transference or anthropomorphization(that's totally a made up word).

The only reason I'm 'nitpicking' this is, it's often my gut instinct to encourage a dog with praise when they "think they've done something wrong", and if you're looking to desensitize her to sudden loud noises, make sure you're not in the mindset that she's feeling guilty. She probably isn't, that's a complex and relatively human emotion. You don't need to worry about her thinking she's done something wrong, and you shouldn't respond to her with that story in your head, you're more likely to reinforce whatever she's displaying at that moment, out of imagined empathy.

I act like nothing happen, or sometimes laugh. She will jump move back a foot then with her head lowered sniff around and investigate what has happened. Sometimes the hair on her back will go up.

She reacts to the noise mostly in a manner like something is about to fall on her (probably because stuff has fallen on her before when she ran into things)

Around new people her ears go back and she goes submissive pretty quick, and definitely appears uncertain at times, especially if people lean down to pet her real fast (still no idea why this happens, when she jumps we always used a knee to push her back, never our hands)

This is why I am concerned, sometimes around people she really knows she gets so excited that she pees every once in awhile, I used to think it was submissive peeing, but she only does it around her favorite people that she hasn't seen in awhile. Somepart in the back of my head is screaming that this is a submissive thing or a sign of weak nerves. However, in our group classes she doesn't even pay attention to other dogs anymore and stays incredibly focused no matter what noise/toys/movements/anything.

Just curious...isn't this dog about 2 years old?

From what I recall reading - anytime a dog pees when greeting, they bomb out of any real protection/aggression/bite training. It simply could be they are too young and you have to keep building confidence and retest or they become an extraordinary house pet Either way she is beautiful.

You can not train nerves. If a dog is not hard, or stable enough for protection, there is nothing you can do about it. I'm not saying that you can't make her more confident in day to day life. You can certainly do that, but if she is soft, nothing you do can change that. They will fold under pressure.

"Her nerves are typically pretty solid. She gets skittish if she knocks something down really loud, but typically its because she thinks she did something wrong, but it is usually less than a second before she turns back to examine the source of this loud noise. Every once in awhile she gets a little barrier frustration on a windy day and her hair raises up."

"Around new people her ears go back and she goes submissive pretty quick, and definitely appears uncertain at times, especially if people lean down to pet her real fast (still no idea why this happens, when she jumps we always used a knee to push her back, never our hands)"

IMHO, none of these statements leads me to believe Heidi is a candidate for protection training. As Mr. Scott mentioned earlier, it will be easy for a decoy to put her into defense and make her look like a beast to someone unfamiliar to bite work. You seem to trust this trainer, and I hope he is as scrupulous as you believe.

And if she is a soft dog, please don't use your knee when she jumps up. That won't help her confidence at all, and it can send some weird messages while she is excited, and you really have no way to understand how she is going to interpret that force. I strongly suggest some marker training with rewards for having 4 on the floor or a sit when greeting someone. You may have created this urination issue by reacting to jumping with force. Puppies lick their mother's face in submission. When you become the boss, the puppy will want to lick your face in submission. They have to jump to do this. When you correct with force for this, it makes an already submissive dog even more so, so they up the ante and urinate, another sign of submission. Then it becomes a habit. JMHO, and I could have it all wrong.

I hope I have it all wrong and she's a monster on the sleeve when she is tested.

 Quote: David Eagle

 Quote:

But typically it's because she thinks she did something wrong

This seems atypical to me. Has she been corrected or yelled at when a loud noise occurs? Has she been castigated for knocking things over in the past? You certainly know your dog better than me, but that seems like transference or anthropomorphization(that's totally a made up word).

The only reason I'm 'nitpicking' this is, it's often my gut instinct to encourage a dog with praise when they "think they've done something wrong", and if you're looking to desensitize her to sudden loud noises, make sure you're not in the mindset that she's feeling guilty. She probably isn't, that's a complex and relatively human emotion. You don't need to worry about her thinking she's done something wrong, and you shouldn't respond to her with that story in your head, you're more likely to reinforce whatever she's displaying at that moment, out of imagined empathy.

Smart post David. The dog is probably reacting in anticipation to how she thinks you are going to react. She expects repercussion. I think you used too much compulsion on a soft dog.

Man, I sound like an A$$. Sorry if this offends you Jeffrey. I'm just trying to help. If I'm way off base, I really do apologize. It's hard to read this stuff from a couple of paragraphs. I'm just giving it my best guess.

ETA: I speak from experience on this. I had a sharp female I was training that I mistook for being a hard dog and I was way to rough with her. Unfortunately, she was never all the dog she could have been. This is part of the reason I got into positive training methods years ago. I keep her in my mind, because it's easy to correct a dog, even if it's the wrong thing to do.