I'm on my second pair of GSD's. My first pair (male & female) passed away two years ago and we just got a pair (also male and female) of 8-week-old GSD puppies.

Fifteen years ago I did lots of training with my GSD's. I worked with a Schutzhund competitor/trainer to learn the skills. My dogs never participated in competition but I wanted rock-solid obedience skills (not interested in defense at the time).

Anyhow, I've forgotten a ton of stuff and also wanted to explore current ideas in dog training. The methods I learned back then were more correction-based than anything else. I see now that there's a solid undercurrent for "Pavlovian" training. That's fine.

I got a bunch of Leerburg videos and went through the 8-week and Training with food videos. I have some questions. I'll post them in this thread. Please let me know if I should split them into separate posts.

The first one is about the statement Ed made in "8-weeks" about keeping dogs permanently in pens while in the house. And, at the same time, if more than one dog was involved, keep them in separate pens and only allow them to have contact when outside the house.

I have to admit that I did not have a positive reaction to this and simply do not understand why this recommendation is being made. I do understand that you don't want to try to train two dogs at the same time. I tried to do that with my prior GSD's and it was tough beyond comprehension. We did not make progress until I separated them during training. However, other than that, my dogs lived together --outside pens-- their entire lives.

Can someone please explain the reasons behind the segregation of dogs in pens while in the house? Is this for life or for a specific period of time with some goals in mind?

The other question has to do with food-based training. In neither video (about five hours total) do Ed or Micheal talk about when (or if) food is ever curtailed or removed from the training process. Are you training the dog to always expect a treat for sitting, standing, downing, etc.? My old dogs received very little in the way of food rewards for actions and were 100% reliable on everything, even long distance hand commands in very stressful conditions (picture two GSD's in a dog park, with a pack of dogs circling them and going insane, while they remained on a sit-stay and I controlled them from a distance with hand signals to down, stand, sit, and come one at a time).

So, how does this food-for-everything training work? Does the dog always expect it? Will the dog stop paying attention to my commands with time if treats start to go away?

I wish the videos had covered the chronology of food, skills and, if applicable, getting off food payouts for behaviors.

Long first post.

Thanks in advance.

The idea behind training with food is that you lure the dog into position and reward - that stops you having to prod, pull or push.

Then you gradually wean off the food by asking for more. For example in my puppy classes; first dogs are taught to sit by luring with food, then they are rewarded for sitting with food, then we start asking the dog to do 3 position changes for a single treat, then 5. Then we lure pups (who haven't already learnt) that they can sit in the heel position. Then you can start adding sit from heeling etc.

The idea is that you gradually build up on the level of obedience while slowly reducing the reward.

I personally never entirely eliminate the reward. Sometimes I reward my gsd for a simple sit or heel - but mainly I use food to teach new behaviours, work in high distraction environments. If they believe that a reward might be coming you will see quicker results and happier dogs than those trained on correction alone.

hey martin , the idea behind the dog separation is so the dogs don't wind up entertaining each other , and consequently , being less likely to look to you as the source of fun , and direction . this is one of the subtle , yet important , ways that you demonstrate that you are responsible for all aspects of their lives . you determine who plays with who , when that playing will take place , and how that playing will happen .

once again , i'll refer to what ME had to say on the subject . his take on this and other behaviours focuses on balance in the dogs life . if you see the dogs paying less attention to you , and would rather be playing with each other , then you should probably be doing more engagement work with each dog separately until you start seeing more consistent , reliable focus on you all the time . obviously that doesn't mean it can't be done the way you did it before , but you might be making the task more challenging than it needs to be .

the critical socialization period is the ideal time to lay the foundation for the relationship that the three of you will carry forward into the future . . . take advantage of it .

good luck !

If you get the Leerburg newsletter, note that Ed announced today that they are starting work on their latest video, which will be centered around weaning dogs from rewards. The focus will be on preparing for competition and will work for anyone training with markers.

In a practical sense, you can wean a dog from the reward, behavior by behavior, as soon as the dog knows the behavior (but his motivation level will change). I certainly don't reward my 4yr GSD every time I tell her to sit. Actually, unless there is an exercise going on, she never gets rewarded for a sit. She will get a correction, though, if she doesn't sit.

 Quote: ian bunbury

hey martin , the idea behind the dog separation is so the dogs don't wind up entertaining each other , and consequently , being less likely to look to you as the source of fun , and direction . this is one of the subtle , yet important , ways that you demonstrate that you are responsible for all aspects of their lives.

Is that the one and only reason for this?

How about the idea of having them live in a ex-pen while in the house? What's the reasoning behind that? For how long?

 Quote: Duane Hull

In a practical sense, you can wean a dog from the reward, behavior by behavior, as soon as the dog knows the behavior

OK, this is no different from my prior experience even though I didn't use food rewards but rather lavish praise or sometimes a happy "good boy!". As you are saying, this didn't continue forever.

 Quote:

She will get a correction, though, if she doesn't sit.

What kind of a correction? My impression is that the new idea is that, at least during training, there are no corrections but instead "no, try again" commands.

What I remember from my prior GSD's is that, as they got older, they got lazier. I had a full set of hand signals to command every behavior. In my case, a closed fist meant "sit". Sometimes they'd do a slow-motion sit but they'd still sit. So, no corrections needed. I wonder if one of the advantages of the food rewards approach is that one can re-introduce it at different times and levels in order to restore engagement.

Reward or no reward
I will reward every single time I use a marker in training. FOR ME, That is primarily for competition behaviors.
Everyday commands don't generally get marked once the learning process is complete. A "good boy" will do.

examples;
"Platz" "Sitz", "Front" competition command and will get marked and rewarded all the time unless I'm chaining it to another trained behavior. Then the chained behaviors are rewardable.
"Go lay down" "Down" are everyday commands that I don't require speed or exact precision, just compliance. That will probably get a "good boy".

My dog has already been trained to sit, down, come, and a few other behaviors. I am no longer training them; they are proofed and are part of our everyday coexistence. When I command learned behaviors, there is no compromise.

However, if sit is part of training, such as an exercise, routine, or chaining of behaviors, it is either rewarded or bridged.

Corrections vary with systems, dogs, and trainers.

there are appropriate behaviours in appropriate places . the ex-pen in the house shows the dog that he has some freedom to get up , move around , view the activities going on around him , essentially be a part of the household , but without the unlimited freedom to roar around the house , possibly causing trouble which you then have to correct or deal with to varying degrees .

think of it as a step between the total confinement and protection of a crate and unlimited access to your house , which he may not be ready for , or have " earned " the responsibility to , yet .

and while it shouldn't be considered a " life sentence " it may be one of those tools that you may be glad you have developed for various times throughout the dogs life .

henry is the first dog i have used one with , and i'm sure glad i have it . he has his space where he can observe how hector , the older dog , handles himself . conveniently , it has also provided a secure space where henry can play with his chew toys without having to worry about hector stealing them .

 Quote: Bob Scott

"Platz" "Sitz", "Front" competition command and will get marked and rewarded all the time

I know nothing about competition. Dumb question: Are food rewards allowed during competition? If not, I guess that is the one time when you won't reward competition commands, right?