Hello... I am a long time lurker and this is my first post..I will try to give you as much background as possible.

I could use a little help with my 2 year old female Aussie. She has a bad bad habit of chasing my cat.

Kylie came to live with is when she was 9 months old and was a total heathen with NO training. We started with a 6 ft leash and a prong - we progressed to a 30 ft long line and then when all the commands were pretty solid - I went to an e-collar for more distance control (after an unexpected and scary car chasing incident at the park during a training session).

Transfer to the e-collar went very well. I used it more or less like an electronic leash as described here. For the recall I used an automatic nic right after the command to speed her resoponse and for the last three months I haven't had to use the nic at all... her recall is automatic and rock solid.

She had a job this year chasing geese and I can even call her off a chase.

Her working level is a level 1.

Here is my problem. She chases my cat. I can call her off the chase with a No, Hey, Leave it...I have corrected her when I catch her chasing with the e-collar, the prong and my bare hands.If I catch her at the "stare" stage I can give her a "leave it" and she will at least for the time being. I also praise, stroke, and treat her for long downs (if she is relaxed and looking away) when the cat is around.

I have also boundry trained the dog to a certain part of the house so that the cat has a safety zone. The dog is constantly patrolling the boundry and will attempt a sneak raid into enemy territory if she thinks she get away with it. Occaisonally the cat wonders over the line and the chase is on! I enforce the boundry with a baby gate when I am not here or can't watch.

It seems that everything I had done to this point just frustrated the dog and made her want to chase the cat more...so I used the e-collar, set the dog up and gave her a level 1 continuous stim for a hard stare which I released when she looked away from the cat. (which was pretty much instantly.) For the first time I said nothing - just sat accross the room. I did it twice and now she then she was totally spooked - skittish and what I can only describe as "pouty".I know I got the message across because she acted like this for two days and when she was set up again - she wouldn't even look at the cat - and if she accidently saw the cat - she would look away. Then this morning - she chased the cat AGAIN on her way from my bedroom to her side of the DMZ..

I guess my question is - do I keep on with the no- comment- continuous stim corrections even though she really shut down afterwards? She was pitiful. I took her out for frisbee afterwards and she didn't even want to come back in the house! I never saw her like this. I can't turn the collar any lower.

I should also mention that her resopnse to the the correction was suprise not pain and I am sure it wasn't a malfunction causing a more severe correction.

Also my husband once had to use a level 7 to blow her off a chase of a GSD who was chasing some kids playing soccer.

So I know this level one wasn't too much for her - she isn't that soft. The only diffence is I didn't say anything. So what should my next step be?

Thanks so much. This is our last hurdle and I really appreciate any/all comments and suggestions...

Amy,
That was an excellent presentation - you gave all the facts concisely, even giving your dog's correction level! Man, talk about making it easy to give advice...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


As you have already figured out, the E collar is your best tool for this situation. Although your dog is entering a higher drive phase during the "stare", it hasn't actually began the chase - I think this is why the dog was so sensitive to the correction that it recieved ( hopefully Lou will chip in here ).
My dog stalks my poor four cats 24/ 7 , and I've found the most meaningful correction for him is to recieve a high level correction when he's sniffing one of the cats. If he's already entered a strong drive phase, ie, the cat is in movement, the correction does not seem to "stick" in his mind for long.

Of course, different dogs will need different level of correction here. And the strength of the drive will vary for situation to situation, also helping to determine the strength of the correction that will need to be given to be effective.

Awaiting our E collar Guru's thoughts on the matter.......

http://siriusdog.com/articles/ecollar-prey-aggression.htm has an EXCELLENT step by step lesson that I think would help in your situation. It is a bit like what you tried but I think you may have gone a bit too fast and missed some steps that may have helped your dog really learn the lesson you were trying to teach.

Thank you both for your replies. I actually did the read the article ...I admit to shamelessly bastardizing the technique.

The reason I did what I did....(right or wrong) was that the dog KNOWS she is not supposed to stare at or chase the cat - hence the sneak chases.

If I am supervising I can put the two next to each other on the floor. The cat won't move because he is scared and the dog won't chase/or stare because she knows she will get corrected (by me). I didn't think my dog needed to be guided away with a leash because she knows what is expected already.

So my intention was to totally remove myself from the process.. By sitting across the room and correcting without comment...

With a little more info would you still reccomend I follow the article to a 'T'?

Looking forward to more responses!
Thanks,
Amy

What do you do if your dog won't try to chase a cat while on a leash? My dog knows it's pointless to even try. The cats who normally won't go near her on other occasions, know she's not going to do anything when they see the leash on her. I've walked by strange cats with my dog on the walk, and she totally ignores them.

Kitty S.

Will who is this "guru" guy (or gal) that you refer to? I did a search but couldn't find any members with that name?

Jenn thanks for the kind words about my article.

Amy as to following the article to "a T." I'd suggest that you do. This ensures a couple of things. One is that the dog is guided into a behavior, walking away, that makes him turn his head away from the cat. The essence of my method of using the Ecollar can be summed up in three sentences. Make the dog uncomfortable. Guide him into the desired behavior. Make him comfortable.

"Crittering" is just a form of behavior modification applied to the problem of chasing game, in this case, a cat.

Your description of what you did is close to what my article suggests except for the guidance part. You just waited for the dog to look away and then shut off the stim. Using the pulling away at the same time that stim is applied, that I advocate, is the guidance part of the training. What you did might have resulted in the dog being stimmed for a longer time than was really necessary because he had no idea that turning away was what was going to make the stim stop.

And don't expect complete success with just two stims. I recommend that you do the protocol two or three times on successive days and then a refresher about a week later. Remember that the dog has been doing this successfully for some time now and to expect instant results is off base. Other people who have "bastardized" the method have reported the same sort of problems as you've encountered. Taking short cuts may get you results in the short run, but problems may develop, as you've discovered, that weren't covered.

The protocol was originally developed for police service dogs so that they wouldn't chase cats in urban searches. It's been transferred to SAR dogs to stop them from chasing wild game during wilderness searches. It has them finding the critters but then ignoring them and getting back to work without any input from their handlers. I've received reports from SAR workers whose dogs have been within a couple of feet of deer when the deer, who had previously frozen, suddenly bolted, right from under the dogs nose. The dogs looked at the rapidly receding deer and went back to work, without any command from their handlers. When one more step is added for the police dogs, they actually 'intensify' the search for the crook when they find themselves in the presence of cat odor. Instead of being distracted as previously occurred.

Kitty (Somehow you name fits perfectly here. LOL) You might try using a longer lighter leash, such as one made of parachute (aka 550 cord). This would move you further away so that you're less of an influence on him. You don't need the dog to start a chase, just for him to do "the stare." I'd also try putting the dog on a flat buckle collar so there's no association made with previous corrections. I'd suggest that you play tug with the leash and a toy (using the leash to pull the dog back from the toy) so that he knows that he can safely (without the possibility of a correction) pull against the buckle collar.

Amy I think that there might also be a problem with the Ecollar that you're using not going low enough for him. This feeling comes from the description of him you mentioned being "spooked and skittish" after just two stims. I'd suggest that you invest in one from Dogtra. My favorite is the 1200NCP but you can probably get by with the 200NCP. BE ADVISED that at least one electrical engineer has discovered a problem with that model (the 200) that occurs when it's used at very low levels with very sensitive dogs. There are two fixes available. One you can do yourself with about $10 worth of parts from Radio Shack or Dogtra can make the modification for you. But you have to ask for a very specific fix for that problem. If you need this fix, let me know privately.

From the Webster's New World Dictionary:

Guru: in Hinduism, one's personal spiritual adviser or teacher.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Glad to see you finally chipped in there, Lou! We were waiting for ya! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've said it here (and many other places) before, and I'll say it again....Lou's Method WORKS...PERIOD.

Best of luck, Kitty.

Lou -

Thank you very much for the article and for the analysis of my problem...

I think my e-collar is okay I have been using it for quite sometime and after thinking about it -I think her "spookiness" was because this was her first time when the stim wasn't associated with me. I use a Micro iDT Super Trainer from DT Systems (16 levels)...perhaps I should try multiple nics vs the cont stim?

I am going to try again with the leash per your article ...please accept my apologies for bastardizing your fine techinque!

She did look away almost instantly last time - so I don't know if I can "guide" her any faster than she looked away herself...but I will make an honest effort. Like Kitty I will need a longer leash so I can be further away because she won't do it if I am a normal leash length away I have to pretend like I'm not paying attention or she won't try.

And yeah... I knew better to think 2 stims would fix the problem - but given her reaction... I didn't want to try again till I got a little feedback...

Do you think being bested by her long time victim had anything to do with her subsequent behavior?

Thanks again everyone!

Okay...this has been going very well and last night I was actually able to lay on the couch with the dog by my side and the cat on my chest! I couldn't believe it! Thank you LOU!

I did the thing with the leash and the pulling away - it was pretty akward beause I had to have a long line and kind of hide around the corner spying - beacause she wouldn't chase or pre-chase our cat in front of me...We were also able to get practice at Petsmart and on our walks. Eventually we got it! I am so pleased.

I just have one further question...she is still occaisonally patrolling her "border" - and still perks up on our walks and looks for kitties when we are passing a house where she knows they live - it isn't with the same maniacal intensity though - more like curiosity... should I stim at this stage or only for the "hard stare"....thanks for all your help!