Hello,

I am going to start training my 6 m/o boy Sadha in earnest. He is an empty slate and I want to correct my past mistakes.

One thing I have always noticed with my other 3 dogs Helga, Bommi and (Kaiser) is that I could not teach them a strict and specific Front.

I am specially talking about the recall or the retrieve.

It was always upto them to decide where and how they sat in front. It was good enough , but I know from seeing others that it is not the right way to teach the sit in front.

So I decided to teach them to come and touch my clasped hands with their nose and then sit down (hands are clasped below my belt buckle) .

Well it was an improvement , but some times their rear ends are curved and some times they come at an angle and it is not to my satisfaction.


I saw some video on you tube where a dude taught his dog to put it's face (no good way to say this) right between his thighs under his %#&@ . I know that serves as a good guide for a straight front , but it seems a bit awkward for me.

I wanted to know if there is any other way to teach the front ( run to you and sit in front) other than the Awkward method.

What is the right way to teach the front. I would be grateful for your kind guidance on this.

Hopefully I will have Sadha's stitches removed tonight and in a few days I can start with him.


Ram

I start teaching the dog to follow me backwards and then stop and say "sit." I teach that first, regardless of being somewhat crooked, just to get the idea that the dog comes close into me and sits. To start this I sit the dog, get in front of him, get food in my hands at my waist and walk backwards. I do add the command already. As I walk backwards, and in the beginning maybe only 5-10 steps, I say "Here, here, here, sit." I use the command "here" (or whatever my front command is) in the beginning because I want my dog to have a reason to break the sit. Generally, if my dog is sitting, I want to be able to walk away without them following me. Saying "here" gives them a reason to do so. And I make this all very fun and exciting.

Once the dog understands that here means come into me and sit (I will sit the dog, take a few steps back, say "here" etc. and encourage the dog to come without food, and reward the dog after the sit), then I go inside.

Inside, I sit on a couch or a chair or whatever. I keep my legs straight out in a tight angle, and say "here." The dog will come to you, and because it's between your legs, it sits straight. I say "yes," reward, then say "free" and throw a piece of food so the dog moves away and I can call him back to me. A few sessions of this and I move back outside, and start rewarding only the fronts that are straight (and I'm talking take one or two steps back and call the dog to front). When he's crooked, I don't say "No," because I don't want the dog to think that the coming to me was wrong. I say "almost" or "try again."

Eventually the dog is able to come from a far distance, from any position, and if he's not straight and I say "try again" he'll attempt to straighten himself up.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but that's generally how I teach it.

Thank you so much for your kind reply.

What Katie describes is very much what I do, too. In addition, I have made use of a couple of tools that have helped my dogs understand the concept of sitting straight in front of me.

First is a chute which can be made of almost anything. In my case, I was training outside and using two long landscape timbers. (Indoors, I would use something much lighter like two wooden yardsticks or PVC pipes, although I don't like that the pipes can roll if the dog touches them). I started with the timbers approx. two feet apart, and gradually got the dog used to the idea that I wanted him to come toward me, between the guides. Just me backing into it a foot or so at a time, asking the dog to front and offering the reward using both hands held in front of my waist. As the dog got used to the idea, I would close the distance between the guides until it was only wide enough for the dog to sit straight in front of me. I would also gradually have the dog starting from further distance from me, until I got to the point where I could be standing at one end of the chute, position the dog well beyond the other end of the chute, and call him to me.

I also have made use of a platform. I don't like it as well as the chute, but it works great for a lot of people I know, and I have incorporated it a bit. It's a piece of plywood with a carpet scrap for a cover, and braced on the bottom with blocks of wood so the whole contraption sits about two inches off the ground. It is rectangular in shape and you want it to be just big enough that the dog can sit comfortably on it but can't really shift out of position. (The one I use for my Dobermans measures about 12 by 20 inches, and is really a bit too big for my smaller female.) First get the dog comfortable with the idea of the platform and siting on it, then, for front practice, position it in front of you with the long end pointing away from you and call the dog to you. The idea is, if he sits squarely on the platform, he will be in correct front position.

I also attended a seminar last summer where I learned the idea of doing wagon wheel fronts using an overturned five-gallon plastic bucket. You sit on the bucket. Your knees, of course, will be sticking out quite a bit, and you spread your knees about the distance needed to allow your dog to come to a close front. Then you gradually scoot your rear around the top of the bucket so you are basically pivoting in place, asking your dog to continually reposition to a nice straight front.

These are just a few ideas I have gotten from my various instructors. I think some methods or tools will work better for a certain dog than others. We just have to experiment and see what really motivates each dog.

I was wondering if marker training would do it, using the touch command. When the dog comes up to the front of us, would it help to get them directly in front of us if they had to touch your hand or a little piece of post it note, in front of them? Just a thought. I was thinking of this the other day.Sometimes bindi comes in a pit crooked, would this be good to keep her head coming in the right direction. It might help with the front too. You could always fade the hand later. sharon

 Quote: Sharon Empson

I was wondering if marker training would do it, using the touch command. When the dog comes up to the front of us, would it help to get them directly in front of us if they had to touch your hand or a little piece of post it note, in front of them? Just a thought. I was thinking of this the other day.Sometimes bindi comes in a pit crooked, would this be good to keep her head coming in the right direction. It might help with the front too. You could always fade the hand later. sharon

Sharon, if you try this, let me know how it works for you. I would be interested to see!

You can use a couple of board on the ground to guide the dog straight. Do it enough times and you create muscle memory. Gradually make the boards smaller but not unless they are consistent with where your at.
If you don't allow the crooked sit it wont happen. It's about you being consistent as a trainer to get consistency from the dog.

Sharon,
The head straight thing does not work for me. The dogs can still come at an angle and touch the post it note or hand at an angle . Their nose is not perpendicular to the target. Some times when you throw the dumbell and it rolls off at an angle , they will pick it up and run straight at you from 11 o' clock or 1 o' clock.

I think this needs some thing other than the touch method.


I really wish Leerburg will make a DVD on fronts, because it is such a pain to teach it.

I will give the chute method a try. But I am sure it will need a million repetitions before they figure it out.

One thing that was suggested to me that worked was to take a step back if the dog is not straight, not allowing her to complete the behavior (and thus be marked and treated) until she was straight. At this point, my dog already knew the complex behavior of "come means here, front and sit"; I was past the point of marking for just the recall.
I had already trained a front that wasn't very good, so I needed to correct it, and this worked very well. I polished it later by adding the closeness and "look" that I required, in the same manner.

I have always heard that, when training from the beginning, positioning aids (chutes, boxes, two ski poles, etc) work very well.

To the list of positioning aids, I would add that, although I've not used them myself, I know several people who get good results using two guides such as skinny dowel rods or those telescoping metal pointers (such as used by teachers) one held in each hand, pointing in front of you and toward the ground. As the dog is coming to front, you use the guides to help him be straight. If he ends up crooked anyway, you can touch the hip or shoulder you want moved.

When the dog is positioned perfectly, then you can mark and reward by spitting the treat to him. That's the biggest reason I don't use this method. I'm a lousy spitter, so I would need three hands.

Using two pointers like that is also a great way to teach the dog to reposition to a correct front as you slowly pivot (wagon wheel fronts) or move sideways in either direction.