Hi, I have been doing some motivational retrieve work with my lab, and been somewhat successful, but not totally reliable. I just watched a video by Dobbs on table-training the hold and retreive. It eventually uses the e-collar in low level. My question is, do you see this as a good way to teach the hold and retrieve? Is this respected or considered "shit training"? I'm honestly getting a bit confused. I understand about table training being not good for protection work, but what about retrieve work? I guess this would be called the "force retrieve".
I'm not here to start a fight this is an honest question. I hadn't even heard of table training until a few months ago, and didn't understand the concept at that time. I do now.
I would love comments on this and if the method isn't liked, what would you suggest to make the retrieve consistant?
I am working on the Flinks training with drive for focus and grip, and he is doing well, but this is a different type of work, or is it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yes it is different work and Ed’s next tape deals will this directly. This has been a hot topic since positive training became popular. Before this any trainer worth his wait would swear up and down that the only way to a 100% reliable retrieve was through force. This way of thought has been scrutinized as of late with some real life success stories. I am middle road. I believe that if you imprint the retrieve through positive/motivational training the force that is necessary to produce a reliable retrieve is minimal.

Ok, so motivational seems the way to go with good imprinting. This is exactly what I would do with a pup. Now what if a dog, who was supposed to be a "green dog" came at 15 months and it was realised that the dog had a good temperament, and can handle a decent (not harsh) correction, but had no decent imprinting at all? Could this be a legitimate argument for table training retrieve? This dog has such potential, but would have been miles ahead if the imprinting was done. Fortunately there was nothing much negative done, but not much positive either, with the exception of socialisation (thank goodness)and crate training. He was crated an awful lot. He knows how to act around other dogs, focuses on me, doesn't whine to play. He loves to retrieve the toys, and in the water too, but I want him to take, hold, give smoothly. He is starting to do it, but not reliably. I know eventually he probably will, but I would like him to sooner if possible. He will be 2 in January and I don't really want to let him away with not complying. What would you suggest? This is very important so that he can retrieve dropped items, and items by name. Do you recommend a low level stim on an e-collar too?

Sorry, I forgot to mention that he mouths anything that he picks up. I believe that he is anticipating the "out". This is where the Flinks video is coming in nicely.

You write:
Is this respected or considered "shit training"? I'm honestly getting a bit confused. I understand about table training being not good for protection work, but what about retrieve work? I guess this would be called the "force retrieve"

It all depends on who you ask :-)
Since Ed has sold a whole bunch of Training the Forced Retreive with Tom Rose tapes. I'd have to asssume he isn't against the table when used to train a forced retrieve?
Of course, seeing as how you
are already working with the Bernard Flinks Focus and Grip
tape, you may as well stick with Bernard and wait for the
Motivational Retrieve tape which I understand is next in the series

I'm waiting on the new video as well so until then I will comment on my passed experiences. I have had many people ask me "Why when a throw a ball my dog runs after it but then does not bring it back". The answer is two fold. One is genetics. Retrieving an object is bred in a dog. The other has to do with training. Like all obedience exercises. Break it down in small parts. What you are really asking is why doesn't my dog come when told? If he knows the come command then it is time fore the correction phase. For more info on this you could buy Ed's tape on basic obedience until his new one arrives.

Hi Vince, That's good advice, but actually my problem is not whether he will come back, anymore. I worked on that one, but rather his bringing the item to me consistently.
He will run and get the item, mouthing it, and then drop it on the recall. I'll send him back for it and he will often return to me with it, but not reliably. Again he will often drop it and return to me. It's like he doesn't understand. This is why I want to do a form of training that will clearly define to him what I want him to do.

I will not go into forced routines but the basics is you are telling the dog that when I keep the dumbbell in my mouth I am safe otherwise pain is inflicted. If your dog has strong ball drive then a motivational approach is easier. You start with playing two ball. You throw the first ball in one direction when he retrieves it you throw the second in the other direction. But the trick is to teach him that you will only throw the ball if he brings the first ball to you. You do this in stages. At first he must go after the ball for you to throw it. Then he must grab the ball. Next he must bring it close to you. Then right to you. Then he must not drop it to you OUT him. You get the hint now.

Vince, that is actually very easy, and he has strong ball drive. I'll give it a go.
I thought it would be more complicated than that. When I see the Dobbs table training video, it makes sense too. I'm going to have to review all the information and decide what I'm more comforable with and what works for the individual dog. I have 2 dogs, both completely different in nature.
Now the million dollar question, is how does one go about "marking" for the object to be retrieved? Or do I just keep marking with my arm or laser pointer as I throw the balls and he will learn it that way? Thanks so much for your input.

Thomas I thought you were leaving the board after I jacked you up over table training in protection work.

Even though I sell a training tape on the Forced Retrieve I am not a fan of force training. I am not a fan of any kind of forced training.

As fare as the retrieve goes I would alway recommend a motivational retrieve first. One can always resort to force if the motivationbal approach does not work - what one cannot do it resort to motivational training once force fails.

People who are new to dog training need to remember this. Force training is always an option. IN most cases it's a bad option in all cases it needs to be the last option.

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