This is my rant about when and why one things works in a situation and another time it doesn't about the way advice is given. I am starting this discussion not to preach to the choir, but to get us all thinking more. Training problems almost always boil down to the same few things. Please add to this and clarify anything I leave out or whatnot or share your own examples.

There's all these methods...Cesar Milan, marker training, old school jerk the snot out of them, Micheal Ellis (woohooo) and other methods, some strange. LOL You can always take what is useful though and apply it specifically to the situation you are in. Following one method only usually leads to limitations in your training.

You can fight fire with fire when a dog is acting in an undesirable way and you correct it with the leash. Its like a jolt that can be one of 3 things: Abusive and unnecessary (or further agitating), a "wake up" to the dog that works, or an emergency unfair but necessary to prevent disaster that unfortunately occurs with all of us sometimes. Corrections are only fair if timely at the right level, given for either inappropriate pack behavior or ignoring a command they KNOW under a fair level of distraction.

Guidance is teaching the dog what is wanted via marker training or whatever, then adding distractions. You lead the dog when it is having trouble getting through something. That builds trust and confidence in you are the leader. You can also use markers to force the dog to solve a problem on its own, works both ways.

I think with BOTH guiding and correcting people have trouble with the same things; timing, proximity to distractions, and most of all their OWN state of mind because if its just as agitated or nervous as the dog, nothing they do is going to guide the dog to be calm. You simple are not credible to the dog then. I have a very excitable dog and he always lets me know when I am not calm and centered. Even if my timing is good, my exuberant energy amps him up too much. So I correct myself LOL

When you are first calm and centered casually observing even the worst behavior, your timing is good and you do not push the dog too far too soon....that is a recipe for success. You can mostly use marker and rewards and few corrections. Its an art it truly is. Even if you are not gifted as a dog trainer you will in time get to know your own dog so well it becomes natural to you.

Similarly the best way to help a fellow handler struggling with something is to first not judge, but casually observe them and the dog. When you see what is needed, just tell them that kindly. Their unhappiness is the contrast between what they are doing and what they really desire (which is to fix the dog's issue). Adding negativity can cause them to focus more on the problem than the cure, especially because they react defensively denying it. I see it happen sometimes on this forum in trying to help. Nobody needs to be told they are wrong as they are simply doing the best they know, just tell them what they want to know. Allow them to go through their own process of correcting themselves even if they don't get it at first...they will, we know what we are doing, so they can't help but notice eventually.

The exceptions to ^that^ are people like the lady with Mondo? "Yes but...." But what am saying is there is NO need to find a problem then wrestle it down to the ground and kill it first, and then help. Just identify and help without judgement...anyone who argues this is one who does just that...just because we love dogs doesn't mean we need to be nasty with the owner asking for our help no matter how stupid they are to their poor dog. I am working on this myself, I tend to judge when it comes to dogs. I often love the dog before I love the owner, dogs are easier to love

My frustration has been the trend of no one correcting a dog anymore. I have SO many customers with poorly behaved dogs going to Pet Smart classes, and most of these dogs pull their owners in the door. The trainers there must recommend Flexis, also, b/c most are on them. I agree that the old yank and crank methods were too harsh, and a soft dog could be traumatized by them, but it sure has gone 180 degrees the other direction, at least in my area. I have never agreed with a statement more than "dogs are easier to love than their owners!"

Yeah that trend can't last forever, I mean look people will have to wake up and see just how crazy it is to have a stressed out relationship with their dog. Its all about balance...finding that center.

What really gets me is the owner making excuses for their dog's lack of training, control, manners because he is ' a rescue dog' & needs to know that he is loved. <head slap> Even when you explain that the dog feels more secure when your are the one in charge & train your dog. That they are secure when they know what comes next & that the consistency of boundries & rewards are comforting to them. They don't get it. They think it is mean to do that to a dog that was mistreated & not loved. Yep, another head slap time for sure.

2nd only to the owners that have their dog on a flex lead 6ft out in front of them & paying absolutely NO attention to what the dog is doing. SERIOUSLY?!!!! GRRRRR!!!!!

Don't even mention crate training these folks. LOL

So someone please tell me how you are not expected to loose patience with these kinds of people.....while their dog is in your dog face!!!

 Quote: Anne Jones

So someone please tell me how you are not expected to loose patience with these kinds of people.....while their dog is in your dog face!!!

In person, now that I can't help anyone with, those kinds of people really trip me out, I'm rarely nice! I just don't do stupid!!!!

 Quote: Anne Jones

So someone please tell me how you are not expected to loose patience with these kinds of people.....while their dog is in your dog face!!!

This takes as much practice as any other difficult skill to master. I think it helps to know these people are unaware of what they are doing is unacceptable.

"The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding."

Albert Camus

Nice post Tresa.
The most common training mistakes
Timing and not having a clue WHY your doing what your doing but "That's how I was told to do it".
Learning why is just as important as how.

You can teach the ignorant but you can't fix stupid!

Rushing foundation training.
I heard Bart Bellon say with some technical exercises it can take 4000 to 7000 reps for the dog to get it , so you have to have patience.

As someone who has trained primarily her own dogs and taken them to obedience classes (getting a CD on one dog)I find this discussion very interesting.

None of my classes have been the pure positive, never correct the dog classes (thank heavens!). I wouldn't have attended one of those because they make no more sense to be than Doctor Spock did when I'd read the book at someones' home where I'd be babysitting as a teen.

We have two rescue dogs. One, a Pekingnese was found on the streets in SLC and we got her from a shelter. The other is probably a Chihuahua IG mix and was found by a friend on the street in Orange County. Both definitely have issues. The Peke is partially blind and tends to snap/bite if startled. The Chi-IG is very easily traumtized and has seizures and other health related problems.

Despite that the dogs, although loved and even a bit spoiled, are corrected when necessary. I will admit that flex leads are used but all of us pay attention to the dog and what's happening so we can (and do) adjust the lead.

One thing I've definitely learned on Leerburg is that Marker training does not have to mean never disciplining. Gracie was the first beneficiary (or victim? LOL) of my first steps in this training. And, even though she's with a new owner I look forward to when the time is right to get another dog and improve my techniques and timing whether that dog ever steps foot in the obedience ring or not.

My biggest pet peeve is the large dog (often a black lab type) who pulls his owner down the sidewalk in a harness attached to a flexi lead. The owner says "Can they say hi" and acts offended when I say "Not today".