This thread was started by a new member whose name somehow disappeared when he posted it. We decided to post it anyway and hope that the person recognizes the title and joins the thread.

Hi. This is my first post. We got an 8-month old German Shepherd about 2 months ago. My 11 year old son and I have taken 3 training classes with a trainer who teaches corrections with the aid of a choker collar. I've had some decent success with the dog (Luca), but my wife complains that the dog is "a different dog" when I'm not home. She has done a little work with the dog (including coming the last lesson), but she is very busy with managing the house (3 boys in total, home schooling the two oldest, etc...)

My son has struggled to have much success with corrections. Luca hasn't yet accepted him as a pack leader. During our last training session, our trainer suggested we try a prong collar, which we did. My son was the first to use the collar and both he and the dog had a bad reaction to the experience. It wasn't helped by the fact that our trainer basically yelled at my son and made him cry when he couldn't do the corrections properly. We won't be using this trainer after our prepaid sessions are competed (I've also considered cutting my losses)

The following weekend, I took my son (and Luca, of course) to a drop-in class that focuses entirely on positive training classes. My son did better with this training method and my instinct is that it's a better way for him to work with the dog.

I've been reading a lot of the content on this site and listening to the podcast. I really like to concept of utilizing all motivation method dependent on what fits the situation. So while we've introduced reward (food based) methods, I do think there are situations where corrections might be necessary.

My primary question is, "what is the best way to blend food drive training with corrections? Specifically do we continue to use a training collar (the drop in class suggested - and we bought - a harness with the leash clip in front)? The gear being advocate by the two end of the spectrum are very different and don't seem to be compatible. I'd also like any coaching on how to balance both styles of training, so that we don't confuse the dog.

I want my son to be able to utilize a training method that provides him the best opportunity to be successful with the dog.

All advice is welcome and very appreciated. Thanks in advance.

In the marker training advocated on and taught through this site, corrections come into play after the foundation work is done; the dog has a clear idea of what is expected, and you are effective in communicating it to him.

IMO, it's not fair to correct a dog that doesn't know what he's being corrected for.

Also, there's kind of a lot of focus on corrections in the post.

Training is the focus. Corrections are down the road and really have no place in brand-new training. Yes, corrections are incorporated in marker training when needed, but there can be no "correction" for something the dog does not yet know.

Do you have any of the Michael Ellis DVDs, such as The Power of Training with Food?

Or perhaps start with the very basic Power of Markers?


PS

"During our last training session, our trainer suggested we try a prong collar, which we did. My son was the first to use the collar and both he and the dog had a bad reaction to the experience. It wasn't helped by the fact that our trainer basically yelled at my son and made him cry when he couldn't do the corrections properly. We won't be using this trainer after our prepaid sessions are competed (I've also considered cutting my losses)."


About cutting your losses with the "trainer" mentioned ..... from that description, I would not hesitate. That scenario is NOT what dog training is about.

Watch some marker work on "On Demand," here:

http://leerburg.com/flix/searchResults.php?searchfor=marker


No crying. No unhappy kids or confused dogs.

You have unfortunately happened on a throwback to 1965 methods, and I'd just end that. JMO!

Training is fun. It's a joy for you, your child, AND THE DOG, when it's done right.

We will be happy to welcome you and give any detailed help you need.




http://leerburg.com/219.htm

http://leerburg.com/training-with-food.htm

I'd cut your losses right now with that trainer. It will take ten times as long to fix the things he is teaching.

Corrections come in to play later on down the road, not during the process of learning expected behavior. The process of teaching your dog should be fun for all parties involved, especially your son!

I second getting "The Power of Training Dogs With Food" DVD as well as the marker training one. Trust me, you will watch them over and over and continue to learn something new every time!

Good luck, and have fun!

Lots of 'correction' talk. And an 11 year old without any apparent experience with a dog is like asking a puppy to train a puppy. And it doesn't sound like the adult who posted has much experience with a dog like a GSD.

It would be a better and more sound approach, in my opinion, to get you - the adult - trained, then train the dog, and then train the son and bride or bride and son.

I had an occasion to deal with a similar situation and it was a case of the blind leading the blind and until we got the roles sorted out, and the skills installed necessary to actually train, it was rough going.

An 8 or 9 month old dog is looking for leadership not confusion. In the absence of leadership the dog will attempt lead, and its actions may appear to require correction, and that correction would be at the wrong end of the leash.

In no small way, I'm concerned for the welfare of the dog. If you go into a relationship with a dog that is premised on correction it is just not right.

I use a prong collar in the context of having it on the dog but I seldom use the prong collar. If you are using the prong collar a lot you are misusing it and you are not reading or actually training the dog.

I use a harness when I want to give a dog exercise and tether it to some weights to pull. I am most definitely not a fan of a harness as a training tool used by an 11 year old child.

It is time for me to stop this epistle.

What they said about corrections, and also - body harnesses. They're pointless unless you're encouraging a dog to pull or he has throat/neck problems and can't wear a normal flat, buckle collar. Front clip harnesses were created to physically stop the dog from pulling, but ANYONE who actually uses their brain instead of relying on contraptions they strap onto an animal can teach a dog to walk on a loose leash without him wearing any gear at all. In reality, the only reason your dog should be wearing a flat collar and leash is because its 1) the law and 2) you need to physically keep him with you so you can work together and minimize the risk of him wandering off when he's distracted. That should be your ultimate goal, even for a pet, in my opinion

I completely agree with the folks who have suggested marker training and building a good foundation. As far as kids and corrections; here are my thoughts: Corrections require good timing- there are a few kids who have had a lifetime of exposure or a very rare natural instinct can time them correctly to still be fair to the dog. Also, kids don't really grasp the concept of correction. My main goal would be to watch the marker training DVD's with my child that would be helping train and have him observe (perhaps even critique your method compared to Micheal Ellis ) In order to learn the process and earn trust from your pup through consistency. When Luca gets a concept down well AND your boy understands the what and how of marker training, THEN I would be comfortable allowing them to work on those known commands. It will help with reinforcement for Luca and will allow your son the opportunity to participate. Dogs and kids can be great together but usually, it takes the adult to set them up for success. I like prong collars but don't think it should probably be a tool you are using until some basic commands are very solid.

any trainer that can't read a child well enough to avoid making him cry sure wouldn't be getting any of my money .

 Quote: Mike Arnold

And it doesn't sound like the adult who posted has much experience with a dog like a GSD.

It would be a better and more sound approach, in my opinion, to get you - the adult - trained, then train the dog, and then train the son and bride or bride and son.

The TD at our club is a professional trainer, and one of the things he commonly deals with is training and retraining companion dogs. The approach I have seen him use with a new client and untrained dog is similar to what Mike just described.

His first couple of sessions are only with the primary handler. He then invites any other adults who will be handling the dog. Once the dog has been to enough training that he is reliable, the children come and start getting introduced to handling. By this time, the dog understands what is going on, the child is only acquainted with basic commands (such as sit and heel), and there is no need for the child to give a correction.

It's a rare 11 yr old that understands dog training enough to be making corrections. I also believe that only one person should be training the dog through any beginners class. It's hard enough for the dog to figure out what one person is trying to communicate much less a family.
I would run from any "trainer" that allows this much less promotes it.