More questions please....

Okay since my last post, have been working the out, retrieve with item and dropping in my vicinity, the come with either sit or down on front of me (no prey item for this one), and all is fine as I was instructed to do them seperately. Yes...that was the trick!!!Thanks

She comes back, but WHOA,,,, the fight is on when I say "auussss" to the stick. I said it 20x yesterday and no way would she out it into my hand,,,,no way! She then became so frustrated, that she grabbed my arm. I have 2 seperate bruises on it now (no problem) but is she biting me, frustrated or not intending to get my arm but getting it trying to get that stick?

I had her pronged, leashed and corrected her for not outing on command. And stepped on the leash so that she could not throw herself on me with a body slam.

She outs at my feet, but not in my hand. May I add, I had no idea how strong a dog is that wants to keep it's stick. I fought with her, becuase I have read that the handler cannot lose this fight.

As I have mentioned before, food is of no interest to her whatsoever. Nor is favorite toy......she wants that stick and will do whatever is neccesary to keep it or get it from me.

Should I have corrected her for grabbing my arm (hard)?

In my openion you have two choises. Bernard has a tape o this . He teaches the out by grabing the skin on the dogs flank. But you have to be very quick so the dog doent know its you doing it.
Or you could do a ear pinch.
Put your thum nail on the inside of the ear and your 2d finger on the outside were the thum nail is on the inside. Take the stick in your other hand and give the oust command. an instant later pinch with the thum nail. She will drop it in a flash.

Sorry I cant spell One of these days I'll check it befor hitting the post box

Sorry Ron, but do you honestly believe the dog doesn't know who flanked him?? Heck, even in the tape, you see the dog whip around to bite Flinks' hand - for sure, the dog sees that hand (since he is targeting it!). And an ear pinch is going to make the dog head shy?

This dog/handler team intends to become active in a sch club if I remember right? What is stopping you from joining the club NOW and getting some help before you screw this dog up? Teach the out correctly, under control, without creating avoidance behaviors that you'll have problems with later.

If the flank out is done right, it is a one time thing, not something you do over and over again. If your dog isn't outing on command after the fisrt time, you aren't doing it right. It goes back to the one hard correction being better than a 1000 nagging ones... oh please little doggie out for me... :rolleyes:

Lee, if the dog was targeting his hand why didn't he bite it? The dog turned in the direction of the pain which is not unusual.

A lot of things can be going on here about the out. Are you holding the stick when you ask for the out? If so you could be causing a bit of opposition reflex to kick in. Also, if your hand is there, your arm is more accessible to the munching that it sounds like is going on. I don't remember how old this dog is? Will she trade for another stick? Are you playing the two toy game, or have you been doing something else?

Hi back again,

Okay to answer re: the club, well it is winter here and hovers around -20. So they basically shut down until the weather is bearable for us and for the dogs.

If you think I should wait to do all of this until I actually am attending their requirement of 3x a week, then I shall. I guess I wanted to at least have some things down pat as I have the time to train (work part-time).

I am doing the 2 stick thing, and she brings back wonderfully. But now that she has got it (2 weeks now), I wanted to elevate her to the next level...which is to 'out' into my hand. This is where the problem starts. I grab hold and say firmly "out" and she looks at me and says.....oh yeah.......

So perhaps, I am going to fast? I just felt that we were ready for the next level. I don;'t think she intended to nip hard, but I don't know.

Thank you for your efforts though

OH, come on, good strong dogs take more than one correction. It is true that one”good “correction is better than a thousand nagging ones, but that does not always equate to a hard correction. Timing is just as important. Dogs may be dumb but they’re not stupid, don’t you think the dog is smart enough to know who is flanking him.
Colleen, I think Lee has the right idea, join a club or get some help from someone who can see first–hand what the problem is.

Colleen, when you say you "take hold" and then ask for the out, do you mean you take hold of the stick or her (i.e., the collar)? If you are taking the stick, try NOT doing that and asking for the out. It is far harder to get a dog to out when you are actively competing with her for possession. If she'll out consistently when you are standing up, not reaching for her stick, that's enough to allow you to train and play all you want to without causing any further issues. Outing into your hand is not important at all at this point.

And Deanna - why didn't the dog bite Flinks - cuz he's quick and cuz the dog was a beta-type, submissive dog. That was no badass macho male GSD he was working. But the dog sure knew what was what.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
And Deanna - why didn't the dog bite Flinks - cuz he's quick and cuz the dog was a beta-type, submissive dog. That was no badass macho male GSD he was working. But the dog sure knew what was what.

Yes, if you remember correctly he does not do this method of flanking dogs over the age of 12 months. The man is not stupid. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I agree the dog knows the pain comes with the aus. And I agree the dog knows where the pain comes from, but again, on a YOUNG dog, over a toy.. the flank is usually a pretty quick way to teach the aus. Maybe you would rather not teach it with compulsion, I don't know what you prefer... but for me aus isn't negotiable.

I should also add for you colleen this flanking method talk is an offshoot and Bernhard would not flank a dog when outing into the hand. The out should be solid before moving to that.

I also agree you are worrying about something you will not need for a while. The first time the dog has to out in your hand is in the dumbell retreive. That doesn't come till the SchH 1. You need to just keep focused on playing with your dog at this point until you have a club to help you.