I have a 12 wk old female GSD that was initially grown on kibble at the breeder. We are transitioning to raw using THK Keen and chicken backs.

We previously raised a female GSD on raw using chicken quarters, kelp, alfalpha powder and salmon oil and Vitamin E. She had a dysplastic R hip on initial hip evaluation at the age of 2. Back then I didn't know a lot about meat variety and so she mainly always had chicken.

She was never lame and still isn't, in fact, you would never know she had a bad hip. We have kept her on the leaner side at 70 lbs.

The problem is, I strongly wonder if an incorrect balance of calcium:phosphorus contributed to her developing that dysplastic hip. She was the only pup in the litter who ended up dysplasic. We had hoped to breed her and of course, had her spayed.

Therefore, I am a bit OCD about feeding this new girl. She is on a co-own with a breeder. I want to make sure I am feeding her correct and really don't want to feed her kibble, just to ensure a proper calcium: phos balance.

I also don't want to make the feeding so tedious as to make ourselves weary in figuring out amounts of everything constantly.

Any suggestions out there?

If you are feeding THK....not all are for approved for all live stages....meaning that they do NOT have the proper nutritional balance for puppies. (keen is not for ALS) The NOT ALS are fine for adults but not for growing pups. Pups need a 100% balanced diet in order to grow proper bones, muscle & nerves etc. Adult's diets can be fudged a bit,but not a pups.

If you feed Love, Embark, both grain free or Thrive has oats...you can follow the feeding instructions on the box for mixing THK & adding RMBs to ensure a good growth diet for pups.

Just a PS to the perfect answer you have received, here is a list of the THK foods and which ones are meant for what life stages:

http://leerburg.com/honestkitchen.htm


I think that THK and the amount of add-ins that they direct is a very good and safe puppy diet (assuming that you choose one of the ones Anne mentioned).

Keen isn't one of them, but don't worry if you have gone a week or two with Keen and chicken backs; I would just get a puppy one now.

If you are using it as a bridge to all-raw, please don't start the raw without posting here, or reading up on puppy raw on the LB main site, and probably getting a book or two as well.

If chicken quarters, kelp, alfalpha powder and salmon oil and Vitamin E was your complete raw diet, it's short on a few things (including, as you said, variety). We can help you with that, though, so don't worry. Just get Thrive (or one of the other two) and use it with the recommended amount of backs for now.

For a new puppy be absolutely 100% compulsive about rinsing off the chicken. There is salmonella, listeria, ecoli, staph etc. on the surface of the chicken, some from processing. It's not usually IN the chicken, it's ON the chicken, and most can be rinsed off.
An adult dog can cope with some of this, a new pup not so much.

Happy puppy!

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

For a new puppy be absolutely 100% compulsive about rinsing off the chicken. There is salmonella, listeria, ecoli, staph etc. on the surface of the chicken, some from processing. It's not usually IN the chicken, it's ON the chicken, and most can be rinsed off.
An adult dog can cope with some of this, a new pup not so much.

Happy puppy!

Yeah, commercial poultry has hit amazing heights of surface pathogen load ..... turkey even worse than chicken.

I pour a teakettle of boiling water into the sink and down the drain after I do this rinsing.

Moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33301&page=1#376324

Edited by Connie Sutherland (04/11/2013 10:42 AM)
Edit reason: moved new topic

Thank you Anne, Connie and Betty for your helpful suggestions!

We bought THK Love and she won't eat it. I guess it's back to the store for an exchange

Michael: Yes, we did walk her, not at a fast pace and not for long walks. Just around our neighborhood block.

It has been a frustrating dilemna for me, as it was the first time I had ever fed a dog raw and then with the dysplasia, I have always wondered if the feeding somehow contributed to it, i.e. too much bone in her diet, etc.

p.s. we have a meat supplier here in Utah that we can purchase beef mix, tripe mix and such. They have told me they take the dried layer off the cows, after hanging, and mix that up for dog food. Not sure how much muscle meat is involved with that. Seems like it would be mostly fat, but it sure appears red. They also have a tripe mix that has 50% tripe, 15% organ and 30% meat with the rest bone, I guess that would be 5%. My husband fed the pup that and she totally had diarrhea. Obviously stopped that and went straight back to chicken backs, quarters.

We are back to solid log poops with the chicken and THK. How long should we stay feeding that before trying a bit of variety?

Thanks again.

We bought THK Love and she won't eat it. I guess it's back to the store for an exchange.

Hold on! Lots of dogs are suspicious of a new food at first. She liked Keen, right? Did you start by pouring a thin gravy of the new one over an RMB the pup loves? Or adding a bit to the Keen, swapping it out over three days or so?

p.s. we have a meat supplier here in Utah that we can purchase beef mix, tripe mix and such. They have told me they take the dried layer off the cows, after hanging, and mix that up for dog food. Not sure how much muscle meat is involved with that. Seems like it would be mostly fat, but it sure appears red. They also have a tripe mix that has 50% tripe, 15% organ and 30% meat with the rest bone, I guess that would be 5%. My husband fed the pup that and she totally had diarrhea. Obviously stopped that and went straight back to chicken backs, quarters.

I would not use this for a puppy because I would have no idea of what calcium content it had, if any. And I'd bet my last dollar that there was bone dust in there, even in the first one. And as you say, a ton of fat. And the second one, you know there is, but no idea how much. Also, regardless, organ meat comes a bit later, and is added in really small amounts at first.

It's the calcium-phosphorus ratio that's so crucial, and this is the ratio of RMBs with muscle meat (like a replica of small prey) or THK with add-ins only as directed.

Stuff blended at a butcher shop ..... I might use it with my adult dogs if I had a pretty good idea of what was in it, but not a growing puppy. Not without an analysis plastered on and certified. Adults have the mechanism to excrete excess calcium that puppies don't have yet, and adults aren't growing bones and teeth that require a set amount of calcium as opposed to phosphorus (bones to meat). There is way more leeway, as Anne mentioned, with adults.

We are back to solid log poops with the chicken and THK. How long should we stay feeding that before trying a bit of variety?

Which THK? You want log poops with the THK that you will be using.


PS
This will all work out. The learning curve at the beginning will seem funny some day, when you look back.

Connie, thanks for the encouragement using the Love. I mixed it, put the chicken back in and flipped it over a few times. She ate it!

I am a bit unclear on your comment: "THK with add-ins only as directed." My confusion pertains to the "as directed" part. The only THK they recommend adding meat to is the Preference.

Should I be giving her 1.4 - 2 lbs of RMBs (2-3% of ~70 lb adult wt for female GSD) daily, plus the THK? ( I am only using the low end recommended amount of the THK).

Sorry to drag this out, I just want to make sure I understand and am feeding correctly.

 Quote: MaryAnnChristens

Connie, thanks for the encouragement using the Love. I mixed it, put the chicken back in and flipped it over a few times. She ate it!

I am a bit unclear on your comment: "THK with add-ins only as directed." My confusion pertains to the "as directed" part. The only THK they recommend adding meat to is the Preference.

Should I be giving her 1.4 - 2 lbs of RMBs (2-3% of ~70 lb adult wt for female GSD) daily, plus the THK? ( I am only using the low end recommended amount of the THK).

Sorry to drag this out, I just want to make sure I understand and am feeding correctly.

Had to go find it. The box is vague (read down on the lower right, back of box, to "Do You Know You Can"), but the site is better:

"The Honest Kitchen All-natural Dehydrated Dog Foods meet all the nutritional requirements established by AAFCO (the Association of American Feed Control Officials), and are tested in an ISO accredited laboratory to validate their nutritional content. The dehydrated dog food can be feed alone, if desired. We also encourage the addition of other fresh foods, raw meat and bones, or cooked meats (never cooked bones), if you wish."

"We suggest adding about half a cup of home-prepared ingredients for each dry-measured cup of food. For convenience, all our feeding guidelines are based on dry-measured cups."


OK, now, that said, using the added RMBs only as directed is so the add-ins won't screw up the calcium-phosphorus ratio that THK has correctly; they are telling you that you can add in that much of either boneless or RMB additions and not screw it up.

With backs, you could exceed the add-in ratio a bit because they are not boneless.

Backs are almost double the calcium to phosphorus (basically, bone to meat) ratio of the whole bird these days. (Not too many years ago, when they were often cut wide and meaty, they were closer to the ratio of whole prey.)

So if you were basing the diet on the backs and using THK as a side dish, you'd have to start adding in some muscle meat soon to get the backs balanced.


But you said you were using the low end of THK, which to me sounds like you're basing the diet on THK and adding in a small amount of RMBs (backs). Is that right?





PS
Don't worry .... this will become clear very soon. THK is balanced. RMBs with muscle meat -- also balanced.

But THK can have plain old RMBs OR plain old muscle meat added, as long as it doesn't exceed the recommended add-in amount. (If it does, then we just make sure we balance the add-ins too. Quite doable, but not necessary if you are not exceeding the add-in amount.)

Whew.