Ok so I have trained my 5 month old Dutch in markers. Since I use "NO" so much around the house for bad puppy behaviors I decided it is washed out an I use "pfui" while training in markers as a negative mark meaning he didnt do the right OB. I didnt want a firm "NO" which I use around the house for bad behavior to pollute the marker training for the dog trying but doing the wrong OB. I think I made a good choice here.

So my question is now that I am starting to get near corrections I want to use yet a different word which will be used right before a correction is applied. If the dog understands this particular word "NEE" means you have an opportunity to comply before the correction. My goal is that it should be totally different then the other words used and so far it has not been used so it should retain its meaning.

Now let me clarify that he is young and I have not corrected the dog up to this point. There are some things that I need to stop letting slide at some point because he is a puppy and they need a correction coming soon. Basically when he picks up something off the ground and he knows what "out" or "leave it" means he wont comply. I try to remove it from his mouth and he shows me his teeth. This has so far been ignored but I can see that coming in the near future needs to be addressed.

I set up a small scenario just a bit ago to test it. He lets me groom him head to toe but really hates when I oil his foot pads. I use that Mushers Secrete from Leerburg to keep his pads all nice and conditioned. He loves to mouth my hands and sometimes crosses the line. I dont want you guys to think I train in corrections. I used my markers to teach all grooming and it worked beautifully. I dremel and file his nails and he offers me his paw etc. For some reason he really hates the oiling of his pads. What I do is mark him for being good and calm but at some point he will start to bite at my hands. I used "NEE" for the first time followed by a light tug on his slip nylon collar. It seemed to work and got his attention that I mean stop when I say so. My goal was not to use my hands and smack him but instead just give a light pop to that collar giving him the idea that "NEE" will mean the ultimate marker for a correction is going to follow.

I will reiterate that my goal is not to correct the dog but slowly introduce some light corrections and my "NEE" marker as he gets older. I am not so much concerned about mouthing my hand while oiling his pads because my positive markers and food rewards mostly handle all that quickly. My main concern is when he ate a Cigarette butt the other day and when I tried to remove it I could tell a clear difference that he was pissed and if I pushed it his response was going to be a bite. I know Michael Ellis mentioned letting a puppy bite and ignoring it to show him you are "large and in charge" but honestly my Dutch is strong already and that concerns me. He is an awesome dog but I dont like when he challenges me like that.

So what do you guys think in terms of my introduction to negative markers? I think its a good idea to use different words for these things. "NO" is long since polluted with all the management for being a puppy and while it works from a distance for chewing on stuff etc I dont want it used during training or for right before a correction. If he is in the yard and I am watching him start to chew something "NO" through the window will get him to stop and move on so to me it shouldnt be used before a correction because obviously I dont have a leash in my hand to do that.

Another example here is entering an open backyard door before being released in. A firm "NO" and he backs right out then I will mark "yes" and give food reward. I almost think that I am better off using "pfui" for this because it is during a course of training and the idea is I am teaching him the right thing to do with my markers. Perhaps I think I need to switch my "NO" to "pfui" for this. "NO" seems to work best for distance things like chewing, digging, chasing, etc but after saying it a food reward or "yes" marker is not used. For entering through a door maybe "pfui" is best because when he complies I use "yes" as soon as he backs out of the house and the offer him his food reward. ( I think I answered my own question here, lol)

Any advice to help me fine tune my markers here?

I also have a "NO!" that is reserved for big stuff that needs immediate intervention.

For everything else, I just use non-word grunts. Eh... Uh-uh... Ah... Eh-eh-eh... Or whatever sort of growl comes out at the moment. All of which seem to be well understood to mean "I see what you're thinking about doing" or "keep it up and I'm coming over there" or "you know better than that."

With a puppy when I'm teaching a skill, I sometimes use a "happy" negative marker like "uh-oh!" to mean "that wasn't it, let's try again."

Eta--there are some physical negative markers that are pretty effective too. At the door, simply closing the door when the dog moves before the release is a negative marker that needs nothing verbal. Physically blocking the dog with your body is another. Say the dog is making a bee-line for something he shouldn't--you can step into his path and telegraph a big "don't think about it" without saying a word.

In the beginning with my dog, when he was around 4-5 mos and showing some "bad" temperament, I found I was actually doing things almost to see if he would let me, to see -- I don't know, " Are you REALLY going to try to BITE me over this? " Someone on here told me to quit doing things that brought out that behavior. Not let the dog practice being a jerk.

I think that was good advice.

I use nope, or an eh-eh. I use NO! for serious stuff.

Sounds good. I guess I have the right idea here then. I seem to use the non word uh-uh etc also. All seem to work.

I have set him up where he sticks his head in the door and I close it slowly to trap his head. I dont slam it in there but I saw this on Ed's video for that exact situation.

Betty:

I hear ya on that. I had a problem with food aggression when he was just 8 weeks old. I think he had to fight for his food when he was with his litter mates. I stopped trying to poke that bee hive and it seemed to have gone away. But picking something up in his mouth that is dangerous I cant just ignore so I have to address this some how.

I think a preserved word "NEE" for something really bad that deserves a correction is likely best. If the puppy doesnt know what I want then I wouldnt ever move forward with a correction vs teach him right form wrong first. He knows "leave it" and when my hand is in his mouth trying to get that nasty object out I dont think letting him show me his teeth is a better idea. On the other hand like I mentioned Michael Ellis did say just ignore that behavior and show the dog those actions of his mean nothing to me and I am not going to back down. I think I may try that first and just hope he realizes that. He doesnt show aggression or anything but I can see him testing those behaviors.

I couldn't pretend "those actions mean nothing to me", I was too chicken.

I find with objects in the mouth offering something to trade even if it's not a good trade seems to save face. Or with my guy, having him do some stupid trick like roll over makes him less intent on the thing he is mouthing. Sometimes he'll even lose concentration and drop it completely.

"Someone on here told me to quit doing things that brought out that behavior. Not let the dog practice being a jerk."



I might've been the "someone" Betty mentioned.

I stand by that, and also the trade in the training part of "drop it." I'm fine with offering a fabulous option to entice him to "drop it" in the teaching phase. (I want to capture that behavior and I don't really mind if I have to offer something big to trigger it.)

(And I do correct for non-compliance after the proofing phase.)

Well I guess I knew what was coming. Poor puppy been fighting giardia and loose stool which has been pretty cleared from the meds. Well that cigarette butt did it again. Nice runny stool because of it. I remember when our pug did this as a puppy and it was hell to pay. My first instinct was to get it out of his mouth.

I will hopefully be able to catch the moment again and try the switch and I have before but for stupid things like papers or a shoe etc so it was no big fight and I could afford some patience in the task.

On the other hand do my negative markers seem to be correct? I recall Michael Ellis saying this one of the videos but it was a free streaming one that I caught this on not one of the 10 I bought ironically, lol. I hope I remember this correctly but I do know he said not to have the same negative marker used for house behaviors and used in training. I guess my idea was to toss that 3rd negative marker in there which will eventually be used as a correction and nothing good is coming after like a food reward. I thought this would be a good separation for something really bad vs just not performing the right task or not doing it quick enough etc.

I think the negative marker should be neutral. I've always used "No" but Connie taught me to use just a "Nope". That's a lot easier to control the emotions for me. Just "No" is to easy , for me, to express frustration or anger. "Nope" is a lot easier to stay calm because I have to think about it. No used to just come out.

And I got "nope" from Ed.

"Neutral" is a good description.




I agree, Brian, that my marker words are for marker training only.