I trained leash pressure on a small prong as suggested by Ellis but the place I am going to for training really wants him on a fur saver. They say he is too young on a prong but honestly I feel like all I do is pull on him with the fur saver to keep him in line with my left leg while walking etc. Based on the criteria suggested by Michael Ellis I went ahead with leash pressure training at 5 months old and it has really helped go to the next level of training so I dont feel he is too young based on evaluating his abilities. Most all dogs at this club are on fur savers and handlers seem to be really yanking their digs around so I dont see the benefit here. On the prong I can control him with 2 fingers as can my wife and 7 yr daughter. During our walks if he forges ahead literally 1 finger hooked on the leash and a back command pulls him in line with my left leg. On the fur saver he is hacking from pulling on it so much and I am back to feeling like I need gloves to hold the leash. Of course with out distractions he responds to either leash perfectly using light pressure.

I really loved my 2nd experience with this outfit I go to on Saturday especially with the puppy trainer who saw me and knew right away I was using the Michael Ellis system. I dont want to not listen to them about the collar choice but I just dont get it.

Here is my thinking on the fur saver. Its a great daily collar for management and a dog tag holder. On the other hand it rides so low on the neck right up top his front shoulders like a harness. This means he can pull like a bull against it like a harness. The prong can be positioned high on the neck and stay put if sized properly. I dont have to keep pulling on it and with just a light touch can cue the dog with leash pressure if necessary when he tunes out my verbal under distractions etc. I almost feel like the prong is a nicer tool vs the fur saver because of how little I need to apply pressure and how much faster he responds to that light pressure.

What do you think?

If he understands "leash pressure" should the collar even matter?

Brian;

Steve makes THE point. What difference does the collar make, if he knows leash pressure. If he's pulling against the collar, he is not giving in to the pressure.

The reason the club prefers fur savers, I'm willing to wager, is because that's the equipment that they'll be competing in. I use my fur saver when I'm prepping for a trial so that my dog is accustomed to it. The idea is to get the dog to perform well without leash corrections.

The fur saver is not a tool or a correction collar, and you shouldn't expect it to work that way. What you perceive as dogs being yanked around on fur savers is pbly either
- handler misuse, or
-taps on the collar with the leash that are intended more as reminders than corrections.

Makes sense. Thanks guys

Perhaps he really doesn't fully understand leash pressure yet then. With no distractions he has it but under distractions is the issue. I suppose this is equal to all levels of OB training being more difficult under distractions.

So my understanding is to teach from the fur saver so that the dog understands pressure and not so much the discomfort applied by the prong causing him to comply. I will keep at it and continue to use my markers to teach the leash pressure and proper position during walks etc.

To add to what Duane said about the "tap on the leash as a reminder is very effective "IF" The dog is VERY responsive to leash corrections.
this is usually a well trained dog.
The Schutzhund club I belonged to used only fur savers or flat leather collars because we used no physical corrections.
Using the fursaver for correction training in the beginning will do just as the OP said. You'll just be dragging the dog along.

Is this dog being marker trained? If so then the fur saver can work fine. If the handler is still tugging the dog around then the reward treat/toy is not strong enough to keep the dog's attention or it's drive level up.

I trained in markers. The issues with the fur saver that bother me most is that he pulls so much I can hear is wind pipe crackle so I stopped using it today. I asked the club I go to today and they said for this dog a prong is likely best.

With the fur saver he doesnt respond to leash pops much at all. With the prong I dont have to pop the leash I just give a little pressure nice and smooth and he responds quick and with hardly any leash movement. I showed the trainer today the difference and I settled on the prong.

In response to his drive for food or toy the times I have an issue are with distractions. I am working on engagement right now and still floating between food and just starting some toy work. Trying to find a toy he gets more tweaked about and am thinking a ball on a rope might take it up a notch. He is pretty young though so I am trying to keep him on tugs. His OUT is awesome and even if I keep the tug moving so I will have to evaluate if the ball will or wont work for me.

I am not sure if I am being dumb here or not but I notice a major difference between the 2. Please help educate me on what I am missing or if I am on the right track.

Also the prong I am using is the small sized one and I bought spare links. This was suggested by ED and Michael. The collar just seems to small and as if it would be good while he is a puppy under a year old but should I buy a larger one when he gets bigger? Seems to me Michael and ED suggest the small one regardless of the dogs size.

Should I get a larger one later on as he gets bigger or do you guys all use the small one even on adult dogs?

Brian;

The fur saver is not a correction collar. It is not a training tool. You don't want to depend on the fur saver if your dog is pulling. The only way to effectively control pulling is with leash pressure training.
The prong is not a "no-pull collar". Tapping the prong is a nagging correction. The prong is used to give a correction to a dog that knows leash etiquette and disobeys, or to correct position..

The reason a lot of good trainers prefer the smaller collar is that it gives uniform pressure with less force applied. I use a medium prong with additional links, but my dog has a double coat. Dogs with thinner coats do ok with the small prongs. The large prong works best with a hard dog that gets a lot of force applied in his corrections.

If your dog has higher drive for a particular toy, that would be the one to try. You do need to build more drive, though, if you're having problems with distractions.

I teach the leash pressure I learning in the Focused Heeling video from Michael. He does it perfectly with out distractions but in new environments its much tougher.

Now I am confused as what to use so I will have to keep doing what I learned in the Ellis videos. He suggests a prong for this work and I think over time and as he matures I will get it. My primary concern right now is not hurting his throat so I dont want to mess with the fur saver at this point. I did work him with the fur saver teaching leash pressure but at home and no distractions. Little by little maybe I can go to that.

So that we are on the same page here leash pressure training that I learned in the video was quite simple. I smoothly pull one direction and when the dog give I drop the pressure and mark with a food reward. I do this all directions and even DOWN. He gets all of that so now like everything else I need to train it with distraction. I have taught a BACK command that he does also. Typically on our walks I first say NO for pulling then use my back command just before applying ackward pressure on the leash.

I appreciate the help you guys are giving me but I feel like the assumption is I understand everything you guys are saying and I dont Each reply gives me some info but leaves me with more questions so please try to remember I am a newbie and dont understand all this. All that I learned was the Ellis videos and I have nearly all of them. I watched each one 2-4 times. Some times hearing it explained a different way by you guys really helps me.


In reference to the size of the collar it seems I got the right one. My dogs coat is thin around his neck and I will stick with the collar I have then. Those little rings on it just look so dinky compared to the nice robust Amish leash clip.

Sorry guys I didnt explain myself. A board member brought to my attention I may have painted the wrong picture here.

On our walks Jagger will walk loose leash 75% the time until there is some reason he decides to pull ahead. At those times the fur saver is what he will respond to very little as compared to the prong. This is the basis of my questions and concerns of hurting his throat. The level of pulling on the fur saver is so much and he responds almost not at all which concerns me. A couple of fingers on the leash using a prong and that behavior stops almost instantly. Some times he will try to find the end of the leash on the prong but its hardly any pressure at all by him once he gets there.

Responding to the "nagging" corrections I would say that I dont ever pop the leash on the prong. I dont have to because if for instance I use my back command and he doesnt comply I simply apply reward pressure and he positions himself where I want. Same goes for "down". On our walks I like to make him down when other dogs pass by and if he doesnt listen just a light downward pressure gets him there with out much effort at all.

I dont want the picture to be that he just tows me around town so I hope I cleared that up.

I will do a video tomorrow and maybe that will clear some stuff up. I suck at explaining things in typing so a video should be worth a thousand words. Maybe after that I can get some advice if I am doing things right. I suspect I just need to work more in distractions and it will come together.

You're explaining fine Brian. On a walk, what matters most to me is that its clear to him when he is expected not to pull and when he is released from paying attention to me and allowed to be dog and sniff, look, jump on, whatever. Its ok with me if they pull a little when they're released. Just exactly like you said, not towing you around.

I'd be careful not to blur your formal ob with walks and hanging out. I think the most useful thing I do to teach my dog not to pull too hard is to just hang out in one place and not let him pull. On a walk I just say easy and give him a little pop. Using the leash pressure all the time, I'd worry its going to condition him to always pull and it will be less useful in your formal ob.

The micro prong is fine. You can use it on ANY dog. If it works, it works. If a fur saver, a nylon choker, or a flat buckle collar works, it works. Training is about making things clear to your dog, no matter what your using.

Nagging is something thats ineffective or distracting to the dogs focus. You can nag by saying good dog too many times and you can nag him by constantly tightening the leash trying to stear him around. It generally leads to them ignoring you, but you can get a little more of a reaction out of them with it sometimes too. Nothing good.

I'm kinda thinking you may be doing a little bit of that. When you say you pressure him down, I'm not sure your able to make clear to him what you wanted. I know he's young, but I want him to know he has to down. Downward pressure everytime is you doing it for him. If he isn't comfortable downing around the other dogs yet, keep a little distance so that HE can do what you ask. Does that make sense?