I am curious about the differences, if any, between the Dutch Shepherd and the Belgian Malinois. I have been doing research and have found that historically they have been intertwined but at some point were seperated from both the German and the Belgian with their own breed standard. I'm looking at a Holland import sire that is currently working in bomb detection. Puppies are due in February if the breeding took place. Anything anyone can tell me about the temperaments of this breed. I'm very familiar with Belgians but just looking to know a bit more about the Dutch.

Well....it depends on the lines a lot...best bet is too really look at the ancestry. Many Dutchies have a lot of Malinois blood and are very mal-like. In MY experience, both are super high drive, don't have much of an off switch...I've noticed that more of the Dutchies have a harder temperament than the mals I've seen, but that's just my experience. My Dutchie has recent GSD blood in his pedigree on his mother's side. He's super high drive and has a hard temperament.

I find most Dutchies (and mals) to be very self seeking rather than willing to please but if you use their obsessive drive, they'll do ANYTHING for the reward. Dutchies are known in particular for being independent, but as long as you use their drive, they'll work for you until they drop. Using force (besides being way outdated and cruel) doesn't traumatize them like with many dogs...but they don't want to work with you anymore. You can't pressure a Dutch into compliance like you can a Lab. The only reason I say that is to paint a picture of their temperament.

Thanks for the reply Theresa. You say hard temperament, does this include an inability to be a good family dog or do you mean mostly hard drive temperament?

"Hard drive" .... not really a term I know.


But what most people mean when they say "hard," I think, has nothing to do with either suitability as a family dog or drive. It speaks to the dog's reaction to correction.

I don't believe that "hard" is a breed-specific quality. Along with the tendency to recover very quickly from a correction, there are other qualities that dog people associate with a "hard" dog, but I'm pretty sure the the primary thing would be how easily a hard dog recovers from a correction.

I think Ed has some material on this ... I'll look for it.



About DS and Mals .... my understanding is that a litter can contain both, and that the major difference is the coat. (I'm not an expert at all!) As Tresa said, "Many Dutchies .... are very mal-like. "

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

... But what most people mean when they say "hard," I think, has nothing to do with either suitability as a family dog or drive. It speaks to the dog's reaction to correction.

I don't think that "hard" is a breed-specific quality. Along with the tendency to recover very quickly from a correction, there are other qualities that dog people associate with a "hard" dog, but I'm pretty sure the the primary thing would be how easily a hard dog recovers from a correction.

I think Ed has some material on this ... I'll look for it. ...

I found what I was looking for:

http://leerburg.com/pupqa.htm#sharp

"...a "HARD DOG" does not necessarily mean that a dog is a tough dog. A hard dog has a temperament that can take a correction and not act like you just killed him or hurt his feelings. A hard dog is often a good choice for a person who is big and gruff and not the best of dog trainers. A hard dog is a forgiving dog in terms of a bad trainer because a hard dog is not going to hold a grudge against a trainer that makes a mistake and gives inappropriate corrections."



and


"Hard puppies are often labeled the “puppy from hell.” I have written an article on my website titled “Teaching Your Puppy the Meaning of the Word ‘No’.” This article could be titled “Teaching the Puppy from Hell the Meaning of the word ‘No’.” I am writing this article because a lot of nice pups are given back or worse, put down because the handlers simply did not know how to properly control them.

Hard pups are those that get corrected for being snotty and turn right around, after the correction, and go back to being snotty again. An example would be chewing on the kids or biting too hard on the older geriatric house dog. Do not confuse this description with normal puppy behavior. All puppies like to play. All normal puppies are bouncy, mouthy and rambunctious.

These hard puppies seem driven. They have very high pain tolerances and recover very quickly from a correction. The vast majority of people have never seen a really hard puppy because they are rare. Hardness is not breed-specific, nor is it size-specific. I have seen some of the terrier breeds produce very hard pups."

from http://leerburg.com/hardpuppy.htm

Thanks Connie, as usual you are the never ending wealth of information! May I say though, I'm still not clear about the summary. DS seem to be (from things I've read) a combination of a GSD and a Belgian when it comes to temperament. Is this a fair presumtion? I also see a lot of GSD's mixed with DS is this a good or bad thing?

I am by no means an expert but I joined a schutzhund club a little over a year ago. We have a couple DS people and one Mal person. Plus a couple Mal people that just show up every now and then. I have heard them talk alot about the DS having been mixed with alot of other breeds to bring various traits including pits and great danes off the top of my head. Also, I hear and read alot the Mals are supposedly higher drive then the DS's but the opposite seems true with the ones at our club. One DS never ever shuts off and he's super hard. One guy has 3 Mals and they do seem to calm down when put back in the crate and seem more under control during training to me. The Mals however have scored really well in trials. The DS hasn't gotten his BH yet so hard to say how he'll do.

bump

Out of the hundred or so Mals and Dutchies I have worked / trained, I think there is little difference across the board in ability and temperament except for hardness. There is of course variation between individual dogs. There are plenty of hard Mals out there, especially after they mature.

Dutchies can be a little quirky, as in they usually have something about them that is a funny behavior or habit. A lot of the Dutchies at the kennels were hard dogs, as opposed to some of that Mals that were softer. In contrast though, one of the softest dogs in the kennels was a Dutch.

Tresa said, "I find most Dutchies (and mals) to be very self seeking rather than willing to please but if you use their obsessive drive, they'll do ANYTHING for the reward." And I agree. IMHO, the Mals and Dutchies are working for themselves to get what they want, versus a GSD who is more in it for the handler / dog relationship, but that's another thread lol.

As far as being a family dog, that's going to depend on the family. It's a huge commitment to have a Mal or Dutch in the house. It can certainly be done though. My buddy has his medically retired (broke his leg jumping off a roof) Dutch living in his house, and he's fine even with Gary gone for years in Afghanistan. He's occasionally a PITA when he doesn't get enough exercise or stimulation, but he's not hard to handle at all, even for his wife and kids, unless he gets ahold of a ball LOL. He is a VERY hard dog, but great around the house.

JME

"Working for themselves to get what they want" Those of you familiar with the breed - do you feel that this trait is due to the nature of the breed itself or the intense drive of the breed? ie, the drive tends to override everything else.