So, just spoke with the owner of the first dog training place i took my dog.
I forgot all about this women, and decided to give her a call about a dog that was in my care for a few days.
(He needed to be rehomed, so i was calling all the old "dog people" i could think up.)

I found out the owner of the place actually lives 6 houses down from me! This entire time the woman lived there! :O


We chatted on the phone and after i hung up, i remembered all the "good old times" me my dog, and this lady had during my positive reinforcement clicker classes.
And how TERRIBLY wrong both of us where when it came to handling and training my dog!

I remember one day my dog was acting up after the obedience class.
So she walked on over to us grabbed the lead, gave my dog a correction, eye contact, and a firm "NO"!
I had to literally catch my dogs mouth wide open mid air, while she was going in to bite her face.
Luckily, i have ninja reflexes. And of course, thank the lord, i had a pinch collar on nice and snug.

Then of course there was other dogs in the class, untrained, nervous dogs, offlead.
God, it was terrible.

I wish i found the help of leerbug way back then.

Anyways, i guess this was a rant and rave! XD
Has anybody else gone to a positive reinforcement only facility, and come out with a dog 100 times worse?

Well, I can't say we came out 100x's worse, more that I came out feeling gypped and out of pocket for nothing, although I learned some valuable lessons: I learned the type of trainer that was not a good fit for Amber and I, I learned to be extremely wary of handing over my money to a trainer who demands full payment before classes even start. I learned my dog was a "square" peg who wouldn't fit in a "round" hole. I learned the type of trainer in future to avoid, I learned to trust my intuition more when I'm not 100% sure.
I can't say the trainer we worked with was bad just way out of her league with a high drive truly reactive dog, vs. an unsocialized one. The drop out rate of her class was a big clue, and to my knowledge she is no longer training, although at the end of her last class she did point me to two invaluable resources that have really made a difference.

I've always walked away with something learned even when their training methods were not mine. I do try and follow the philosophy of the class or trainer but will just say no if need be.

Sometimes you learn what not to do and that can be the best possible lesson.

I have held a few group classes and always require payment in advance. And drop out rates are high, people often just do not want to commit to the time.

Totally agree with you,
With the class and payment I was speaking about, it wasn't your typical payment, I have absolutely no problem with that and for that type of business agree with it, too easy for people to come to one lesson take away a lot of info and then never show up again. The class I mentioned for lack of a better term held you and your dog basically hostage until you either paid for a pricey eval. or the classes which were very expensive for a short period, the woman that held the classes was investigated by the AGO and that is I believe one of the reasons she is no longer training.

that's a little different...

I've seen that pricey eval a few times for a basic group class and just keep looking. I love a group class for socialization (me and the pup) and for proofing.

 Quote: Brianah Maloney

...So she walked on over to us grabbed the lead, gave my dog a correction, eye contact, and a firm "NO"!



...And of course, thank the lord, i had a pinch collar on nice and snug.


...Has anybody else gone to a positive reinforcement only facility, and come out with a dog 100 times worse?

How is this positive reinforcement only?


Your post seems to carry a negative connotation towards positive only training, but your post is not an accurate representative of that type of training.

 Quote: Jodi Moen

too easy for people to come to one lesson take away a lot of info and then never show up again.

The TD of our SchH club is a professional trainer. The first time he evals/works with a dog, a LOT of important info and pointers are given to the owners, and it's not just training tips. He also shares what he sees in terms of temperament, health, aptitude, and how to live with the dog. Many will take that info and disappear. It takes an hour of his time, which is valuable. For that reason, he charges an eval fee. I paid the $30 fee (which is less than the cost of a bite pillow), and it was money very well spent.

OTOH, first-time visitors to the club don't pay a fee and get much of the same info and tips. Many take that info and don't come back. It is a waste of the club's time and resources.

As David said, if your dog was allowed in the class with a pinch/prong collar, and the instructor gave a correction, that is not a "positive reinforcement" session. There may be some balanced training going on, but "positive reinforcement" as a training methodology has no corrections.

Agree with your first two paragraphs Duane, and wish your trainer was the one at the class I took, the eval fee in lieu of the course fee was several hundred dollars and this class was click and treat only, no prongs, no choke chains, no talking to the dogs, no obediance work, no corrections, I kept waiting for the big reveal that never came, and I was out of pocket hundreds of dollars- lesson learned.

David's comment is in regards to Brianahs post where she mentions a positive only class, but then having a prong collar on her dog and the trainer leash correcting her dog.

Ironically, it was the only positive training program (no prongs, no corrections) we entered for basic obedience with Bailey that gave us the most heartburn. Only after we left it and got linked up with a much more capable trainer did we get anything valuable. The first sessions were all just getting to know each other, our dogs, and go over basic philosophy of the training program, pack leadership, and dog behavior. That included the proper use and fitting of prong collars for those dogs they felt it would be useful (like ours), how to administer corrects properly and effectively, and how to train with distractions. It was money well spent up front for just those sessions alone. I would hardly say it was a positive only environment but in the end, with their heavy emphasis on the principles of marker training and motivation, it was a more effective positive training program than any I've seen who just advertise the positive aspect. At one point, we were having trouble with Bailey's behavior since she was still very highly reactive, and they showed us how to be firm and to firmly administer corrections to the level that Bailey needed to help shape her behavior. Again, not something most people might want to see but it's what helped us get a handle on shaping her behavior. There was nothing cruel about it but it was a necessary skill we needed to learn if we were to have a dog such as Bailey, who was really acting like a knucklehead at the time.

 Quote: Jodi Moen

David's comment is in regards to Brianahs post where she mentions a positive only class, but then having a prong collar on her dog and the trainer leash correcting her dog.

Totally got that. I was echoing and explaining in more detail why what she described was not a "positive reinforcement" class.

Greg; that is "balanced" training. In the modern age of reward-based training, "positive reinforcement training" includes NO corrections nor tools which might be considered by the PC to be cruel or punishment. If you use marker training or any other reward-based, positive training methods combined with corrections, it is no longer considered, again by the PC, "positive reinforcement". The class that Jodi described fits that bill.