I was requested to start this new thread for those who will most likely have similar questions as I have/had after watching the DVD/video. (Mod note: This is #219 at http://leerburg.com/219.htm )

I will preface this thread with stating that my dog Axle was sent away for 4 weeks, after much of my disagreeing I have come to terms that he was mostly compulsion trained. If you aren't aware of what it is, re-watch the video and you will notice Ed discuss it, it is what he refers to as the "old school method".
I am now going about doing the marker training method and the questions I have are newbie questions for sure.

This was my first question... I watched the video, and I plan to watch it a few more times just to make sure that I understand it 100%. Today I began charging the marker "Yes!", as suggested I grabbed handful of treats stepped out in the backyard with him and began saying "Yes!" and giving a treat.

We did this about 20-30 times, how many times do we do sessions of charging the marker before moving on to actually marking behaviors?

To charge the mark appropriately, all you're doing is as the video explains, getting your dogs attention using his/her name or a random sound that will grab the dogs attention, the moment you have the dogs attention say "Yes!", wait half a split second and reward.

- This question was answered via PM with Connie, she stated the following.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Part one is simple ...After several repetitions of "Yes!" following by reward, he will soon look for the rewards when you say the "Yes!" Then it's charged.

With that being said from the beginners mind set what you're looking for is the dog to be looking at you like "hey, where the heck is my reward!?" after you say "Yes!". Once you have that, as Connie said you're ready to move onto your luring/shaping/capturing methods of the training.

"With that being said from the beginners mind set what you're looking for is the dog to be looking at you like "hey, where the heck is my reward!?" after you say "Yes!". "

Yes! You are looking for the dog to hear the marker and then look at you expectantly for the reward.

And yes, I added something in the PM about only when the marker is charged, does luring or free-shaping (capturing actions) come in.


So about loading or charging the marker .... you have marked, waited a half-beat, and rewarded several times now? Then I would have another session tomorrow, and look for the dog's lightbulb moment, when he is hearing the marker and looking for the reward.

This varies. I've seen this happen in fewer than a half-dozen repeats. But not necessarily!

Connie,

The only other question I had was how to teach the dog the rules of toys, this may not quite relate particularly to the beginning of marker training but it would be great information even just for me to have.

Thanks!

One thing -- don't do a lot of random "talking" to the dog while you are doing all this.

For example, say, "SIT", when he does, "YES!" produce the treat. No "good boy" "that was great" or any other human-type chatter.

I let the reward speak for me, in the beginning, or when I'm training a new behavior, or marker training an old behavior.

Simple enough to change the marker.
Give the word a half second before the clicker and the clicker can probably be faded within a day or so.
As Connie mentioned that can depend on the individual dog.

Ditto with Betty on keeping quiet when training.
When the dog is learning IN TIME you may add a calm "gooood" as a bridge. This lets the dog know it's doing well but to continue.

The mark is an immediate release for reward.

A lot of folks don't bother with the bridge. It's not a "written in stone" thing.

Rules of toys.

Not quite sure if this is what you mean but the toys are ALL yours. The dog must earn the right to use them while your training.

 Quote: Rob Maltese

Connie,

The only other question I had was how to teach the dog the rules of toys, this may not quite relate particularly to the beginning of marker training but it would be great information even just for me to have.

Thanks!

I'm not sure what you're asking, either. Do you mean whether you should be be using toys as rewards at this point? (No, you shouldn't.)

This isn't exactly the clip I was looking for (this is the puppy one), but the info at about 1:40, and actually the rest too, is the same:

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/226/Michael_Ellis_on_the_Use_of_Food_vs_Toys_as_Rewards_in_Your_Training/


Here it is referring to older dogs, but the picture is messed up. Still, the sound is fine and that's what you want:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zwb2_h879M

Thanks. The question about the toys was how to establish the rules of the toy as a reward. I understand the rules, my question is how to get the dog to understand the rules.

For me there is still some confusion as for marking already known behaviors such as the sit, and down which is pretty well on point. I understand I'm trying to change his mindset from some compulsion training to marker training meaning his correction would be a no reward. If someone could explain what harm would come if I were to adapt the marker training to my current methods? (ie. Giving command, producing desired command, marking with "Yes!" and rewarding appropriately.)

As for understanding and a summery of the thread so far....

- Yes! is the positive marker, which ends the current exercise.

- No extra chatter. Don't talk to your dog besides your markers. It adds distraction and will slow the process down.

- Continue Charging The Mark until when you say the marker "Yes!", the dog perks up and looks at you looking for that reward, and he's saying in his head "hey! where's my treat!"

- Timing is important, when you say your marker Yes! your mark has to be following immediately. Dog's are visual animals, if you say the marker at the same time you're moving your hand, your dog is taking a mental picture of you moving your hand not particularly the marker word. (Connie, please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding.)

- One thing that I remember picking up in the video that is crucial, if you say it, you pay it. What this means is, if you accidentally say "Yes!" at any time during the training...you have to give a reward.

I will be conducting reviews occasionally throughout the progression of this thread.

"The question about the toys was how to establish the rules of the toy as a reward. I understand the rules, my question is how to get the dog to understand the rules."

Do you mean the three things Michael Ellis talks about? That the dog loves the toy, the dog will out the toy 100% reliably, and the dog will bring it back 100% reliably?

1. If the dog loves toys, great. If not, stick with the dog's currency. No reward is a good reward unless your dog loves and wants it.

2. The out is easily taught with markers, and would make a fine separate thread about marker-training the out.

3. The dog bringing the toy or ball or whatever back reliably is a result of retrieve training, which I back-chain (and so do many people here).

Number 1 is obvious, but 2 and 3 are necessary too:

Number two (the out) is a good thing to teach after you are familiar with markers and have honed your skill (and the dog's) on position (and other simple) commands.

Number 3, the retrieve ... this (IMO) is really getting ahead of yourself at this point. It's a multiple-part behavior, which, even if you don't back-chain, still calls for teaching each part on its own before stringing the parts together.

Here's some info I grabbed real quick so you can see how back-chaining the retrieve (or fetch) works:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33448&page=1#379206

http://www.clickertraining.com/back-chaining-retrieve

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/111



Also, some folks teach fetch with the two-ball method. This is all getting pretty far off a thread called "Charging the Mark."

A new "retrieve" thread would be better for expanding on it.


(There is a new thread on toy rewards here: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=34175&page=1#390961 "

All JMO! I hope others will add their POVs.

 Quote: Rob Maltese

.... For me there is still some confusion as for marking already known behaviors such as the sit, and down which is pretty well on point. I understand I'm trying to change his mindset from some compulsion training to marker training meaning his correction would be a no reward. If someone could explain what harm would come if I were to adapt the marker training to my current methods? (ie. Giving command, producing desired command, marking with "Yes!" and rewarding appropriately.)

I'd rather start over.

But if you're happy with his sit and down and just want to give the command and then mark when he complies, then reward, it's your call.

Here's the thing: I really believe that you AND the dog need to start marker work on a position command (or at least a simple command, like "place" if place just means "all four feet on this mat" rather than a certain position after being in the "place." Or maybe a little target work? (Maybe touch a target stick with his nose, for example.)

Also JMO, and I hope others will pop on too.

It doesn't hurt anything to have a few extra "yes's" and food rewards if a "yes" happens to slip out.

It just makes the whole process more fun for the dog.

Think of it like Las Vegas and the slots --- if some money just happens to fall out while you are near, are you nervous or confused? No, it's just a windfall, that made your night more fun.