I have a twenty week old Australian Shepherd puppy. I got him to train as my (potential) Service Dog. I use a manual wheelchair, full use of arms. I trained my now deceased Aussie using markers, followed most of what i see here and had great success--he knew about fifty commands, never had any issues.

This pup came from the same breeder, a Hall of Fame Aussie kennel ranch.This time i have a mess. He is a genetic cesspool but all fixable. The breeder offered to take him back (to kill) but i have already put so many hours into him i am just going forward with him.

He is very bright, we are working on about fifteen things, he does quite well. Again, engagement--he is with me nearly all the time aside from night and naps, good pack structure, markers,socialization,handling him/body parts,car rides, nice trips to vet, nails etc. The plan was to allow no one to pet him, remain neutral.

He has a heart issue and this has meant numerous trips to the vet where he has to be held down for X Rays, etc. We are about halfway into his health issues, Monday, more pinning down then heart surgery soon after, more vets after that.

Now my nice little guy is fear biting and submissively urinating. The biting is sporadic, just depends on what--i don't know, no same thing triggers it. One time he will be on my lap and i readjust my position and he goes for my face, the next time it may be me bending down to put on his leash, next time touching his side.We then can go through a few days and no problems at all.

A few things i have going against me is that i HAVE to bend over him, no way around it. I am teaching him to reach--stand on rear legs, front on my lap so i can hook lead etc. but that takes time to train. Every day we go through the routine of touching, treating, no talking, brushing, going through training routine to build confidence. All seems great and all of a sudden fear bite attempt.

A verbal Argghh puts him on the ground peeing.When he pees, i do not correct, just take him quietly outdoors to potty. He walks along like nothing happened, happy smile on his face.

How do you "correct" the bite attempts while not making him pee? He will be a candidate for an E collar nick but he is much too young now.

All of the great trust and drive we built is receded so much now i am very discouraged. He still does what we have been working on but with little enthusiasm and going forward has stopped.No,giving him back is not an option. I only have so much energy left, it is this guy or no one. On top of that--vets say the heart issue is fixable and do not suggest killing him (the breeder will do that)

The folks involved have been amazing--vets have been waiving fees, donating time, matching funds, etc. Michigan State University has been awesome as well.People are coming through when i need them most--just when i was hating most people. LOL
I'll answer more as asked.
Thanks in advance.
Ken

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/29/2014 08:27 PM)
Edit reason: added paragraphs

Exactly when did these events start?

Now my nice little guy is fear biting and submissively urinating. The biting is sporadic, just depends on what--i don't know, no same thing triggers it. One time he will be on my lap and i readjust my position and he goes for my face, the next time it may be me bending down to put on his leash, next time touching his side.We then can go through a few days and no problems at all.

I can't tell from the O.P. whether this (biting) has been the situation all along or whether it tarted with a certain event. Please don't lump them together. When did the fear-biting start and when did the submissive-peeing start?

I'd also like to read more about why you think the biting is fear-biting.



I'd like to add that this (IMHO) is something to take OFF the table for now: "He will be a candidate for an E collar nick but he is much too young now." IOW, IMO, this is wildly premature. Erase. (Again, JMO!)

BTW, welcome!

You will get responses from good people.

My pup used to do stuff like that!


You could try going "YI YI YI" like a little puppy, set him down and turn away from him.

That worked better for my dog than any correction. Correction made him angry, salty, reduced his bond to me, his trust in me.

what is his health condition? He sounds like major surgery with it's pain and re-hab could be tough for him to tolerate. Will it be more than he can stand?

Thanks everyone for getting this going. Impossible to write every detail to begin.
He had no fear biting or pissing at all until he had to be held down on his side at vets. I would assume fear as being held down against your will would not be pleasant.
He began peeing before we left the vets office.The next few days after he would growl, show teeth and i did the normal arrgghh sound and he pissed all over. I did not correct him or punish him, just calmly took him outside to finish. as days passed this all eased. Then, next trip to vet and all back again. He hasn't been to vet in a week aside from a nice couple visits, in, weighted, look around, see vet and techs nicely and out. Today i needed to move him, just touched him and he snapped at me. No, not injured in any area.
yes, i know he is too young for e collar now but when ready it may help a lot--straight from Cindy notes. I am NOT considering this now.
The Yipe sound does not deter, seems to ratchet up drive
in fact
All the vets seem to think he should be fine after this so it is just a roll of the dice whether all will be fine--physically and mentally.
Ken

Just wanted to say--my hands don't work great so i am not a great typist! If anything sounds snippy--it is not. I'm soooo easy to get along with.
First vet visit was three weeks ago, last a week and a half, tomorrow at the university. He'll be held down again. They do not sedate as it is such a quick procedure.
Until three weeks ago we were going quite well.I have gone slowly as he is a bit immature both physically, due to heart and mentally as well.
To give an idea, we are working on: Watch sit down stand from sit stand from down recalls until vets incidents had been 100% perfect, not now. Come around my wheelchair front--sit in front of me side--to my right side facing me, sitting follow--behind and under my chair wait leave it-can leave treat or toy and he won't budge potty training going well reach--front feet on me or object loose leash walking with eye contact and automatic sit when i stop car rides take drop. So far he shows no sign of wanting to retrieve, something very important for helping me later. He is teething of course, just lost both of his lower canines, enough to make him grumpy.Most of these were started with hand signals, faded and now does both signal and word response This is why i do not want to give up on him, this seems to be a decent beginning. Crate and playpen trained
Ken

I guess I'd back off everything and work on your bonding again. I might cancel the vet appointment- go back in a month. Unless they need to do surgery early, it shouldn't make a difference.

At the vet I would not ask for any training in a pup of this age. Let the tech do all of it. Stay in the waiting room. Let them muzzle him and do their thing. No discipline.

Let "others" be bad and scary. Then he comes to you and you take him away from that place.


I had a blue heeler who we spayed at 5 mos. She was a farm dog. She would never get in a car again.

For some very smart and very fearful dogs, too many procedures can be too much.

E-collars should never, ever be used on a fearful dog. I agree with Betty - back off on the training, work on bonding and trust. His world was turned upside down and became super scary. He doesn't know how to deal with it and any service dog training you do right now is apt to have negative connotations for him. Maintain a good routine, reward for basic manners, be the person he can trust.

Absolutely take the E-collar off the table!
For a beginning trainer I think the e-collar is to much to learn. One of the MOST abused training tools out there if not in excellent hands.
An excellent tool in the hands of the very experienced OR taught under the eye of a very experienced trainer with the collar.

Hard to tell if all the dog's stress is from all the vet visits but either way I don't see this dog as a potential support dog. I believe they should have rock solid nerves. JMHO of course.

Pleas explain what your training methods are. That will make this a bit clearer for us to help.
I'd love to say I'm wrong about the weak nerve thing.

Thanks everyone, you are very kind with responses and ideas.
In no particular order--as far as weak nerves or not usable, i think he can do it--but--i am stuck at home alone nearly all the time so the help he will be giving me is here, not in public. I would possibly agree Bob if he had to go out daily like a guide dog.I need him to pick up items, get things i cannot reach, get shovels across the yard, etc.It would be great if i can get him back to where we were earlier, that is my number one goal. The basis for training is in his head so as long as i can make it through this bad stretch i am willing to do what i need to do for him. I am patient.
As far as the e collar issue, again,I AM NOT GOING TO USE IT IF I DO NOT HAVE TO AND IF I DO IT IS A LONG WAY OFF. It is a distant tool available and i have watched snippets of the DVD Leerburg has. As far as fearful dogs not being able to use them, Ellis disagrees, cites an interesting study on this subject, video is on Leerburg site. The study showed that fearful dogs--his example used a Golden Retriever that laid down submissively, peed all over when given a verbal command responded wonderfully to a simple nick. During the experiments the stress hormones were observed and measured. The nick is of course removed from the trainer--no stress from voice or prong collar.I know for a fact that out west people with wolf-dogs use e collars successfully and properly--again, using Leerburg DVD as instruction. Anyway, i should have never mentioned it as we can get too hung up on it now.
I cannot cancel vet appt tomorrow as he needs surgery soon, this is the precursor to surgery.I let them take him from the room, do what they need and let them bring him back. When he sees me he gets treats after sitting. So far every time he has been happy, head up, wiggling when he sees me.The snapping occurs later. Again, he NEVER snapped at me or anyone else, nor did he piss submissively until the first vet appt.(held down for X rays)Vet said he snarled and tried to bite during that time and peed on the table.I don't blame him at all as this must be rather scary to him.I would not have considered him to be a submissive puppy at all prior tho that.He never showed any signs of fear--in fact is rather bold and gets into puppy trouble because of it. He is very aware of his ass-end and climbs like a goat, good in car, not a barker really, has his nose in everything, does not flinch at any loud noise including gunshots or a stack of pots and pans dropped near him.He has shown no fear of anything that i can think of in fact, noise, motion, new objects.
I use marker training as taught by Leerburg, also learned with Steve Robinson, former captain of USA Sch. team. He uses similar tech. I use word "Yes" no clicker. I trained my now deceased Aussie about fifty commands this way, individual items and linked together for complicated commands. Of course he didn't need fifty commands to work, many were just to keep us busy, fun. He didn't need to stand on hind legs and walk backwards--but it was fun! Just to have a dog pick up dropped objects, go to another room to get an item, an occasional push, retrieve things across the yard like rake, shovel, bag of mulch helps so much and adds up over the years.
What i need now, the basis of my post, are a couple of suggestions--how do i respond to him if/when he snaps at me? This is not yet out of control, he has only done it three or four times but it seems wise to me to have a plan now, not later. Too harsh a verbal command scares him now and he pees. I will not touch him (physical "correction") so i don't need the old, pinch the lips to teeth routine i hear from old guys.Today i just moved my hand quickly and shuffled him off of my lap, ignored him.
I've been working more on engagement again although i must say we do that every day regardless. It is frustrating though that i cannot move like anyone in the DVD's, just sort of wing it.(to build drive, fun)
Thanks