Hi, two things are confusing me.

1. Release Mark: I have learned to give the dog a click or a verbal release mark, when he has done an exercise correctly. At this moment I mark and then reward. But in books and DVDs about Dog Dancing, they say, we should always mark while he is doing an exercise, e.g. spinning, circling around my leg..., or when he is jumping over something I should click at the peak of the jump. But if I mark during the exercise, he will think, he is released of continuing this. What now is correct?

2. Duration Marker: For example I put him in a sitstay. I repeat my duration marker (good) and reward various times, until I want to release him.. But what, if I want him to remain in a sit stay 5 m away from me. I could go on saying "good, good ...", but my arms are not long enough to reward him unless by tossing. But a bad toss would make him break the sitstay and run to the treat. Same thing with spinning and other things he should continue doing at a certain distance, where I could only give him a series of duration marks but no repeated rewards. In my eyes this must be confusing for the dog as it is again contradictory to what I have taught him, when I was near to him.

Has anyone an answer? Thanks Christina

In my training, "yes" is a terminal marker, meaning that the dog was right, he will be rewarded, and the exercise is over. My "yes" releases my dog from the exercise.

I use "good" as well. "Good" means that the dog is right but that he should keep working. He might be rewarded or he might not, but he needs to stay on task. If I was working a Stay and said "good," I might walk in and reward. If I said "good" and tossed a treat and it didn't land in the dog's mouth, I would expect my dog to hold his stay, even if the treat landed inches away. I would then walk in and pick the treat up and hand it to the dog while the dog maintained position. In fact, I use bad food tosses as proofs on the stay.

"Good" just gives my dog information that he is correct. It may or may not mean food is coming, but if it IS coming, it will be delivered. It won't interrupt work. It is a cue that I use to sustain behavior while letting the dog know he's on the right track.

holly is correct there Christina .

" good " is like " yes " , in that you are marking the behavior , but you are also creating the expectation that the reward is coming . when you move towards the " variable reward schedule " , you may not be delivering a reward every time , but the dog still gets the " warm and fuzzy " feeling because he has been conditioned to react that way . it is almost the same as getting the reward .

in your example #2 , what you are referring to is called rewarding for stability : you are asking the dog to hold a position . in the beginning you will be marking " good " and delivering a reward every time , but when they start to get it , you will not . this is almost the same as performing a moving task ( ex. spinning ). for the stay , you mark with your " good " , and then deliver the reward by presenting it to her while she holds the position . you go and give it to her . for the spin , you can be marking with " good " while she is doing it , and then when you are happy with the duration , mark " yes " , she is released from the behavior to get her reward .

I think what you might be confused with is this : when the dog is first learning the simple behavior , or the precise behavior you want , you are using " yes " to indicate to the dog that particular behavior is what you are trying to learn/isolate and that is what you are being rewarded for . you use " good " after the dog has learned the behavior and you want them to keep doing it .

remember though , that you have to have done the same conditioning protocol with " good " as you did with " yes " .

Good posts above!

The duration marker can be used to let the dog know it should hold it's position OR to let it know to continue the movement your asking for.

The reward marker will be for the dog getting it correct but in the beginning if your teaching the dog to circle you then it may very well get a mark and reward for the initial movement in the direction you want. The dog is then rewarded and released.

As the dog understands that your asking them continuing to move in the preferred direction may very well get a duration marker to let in know to keep moving.

I don't know if there is a difference between a bridge and a duration marker.

For myself they are one and the same. Continue to do what I asked be it stationary or moving.

Thanks, Holly, for your clear answer. I am doing these things in the way you say. My terminal marker is ok. But after a bad toss, I have problemws. Then my dogs will not keep the sitstay, downstay etc. This must be very difficult to train. I think, it means, the sitstay is not solid enough yet and I will have to work on this. Great idea to use bad tosses in order to proof the stay.
Christina

Thanks, Ian. Your answer is very helpful for me. Especially the part about the moving behaviours. Yes, Id and am doing the conditioning protocol with "ok" or click as release marker and "good" as duration marker.
What actually confused me, was what I read and saw in Dog Dancing books and DVDs, where they repeatedly say to click during the movement. But the Click is for them not a duration marker, it is used as release marker. That's what seems to me confusing for the dogs.

Thanks, Bob,for your explication. This helps me a lot, when I want the dogs keep on doing a moving exercise. As I wrote to Ian, the confusion I had came from recomendations from Dog Dancers. I could and cannot understand, why they use the Click as a release marker as well as during movement, but then normally at a specific point of the exercise, not really like a duration marker, which we give various times to let the dog know, that he should continue. This I did and do not understand.
I think, it is better to teach them different sounds.

IMHO, the reason the trainers click at specific times during the routine is because they have learned that these are the points where a dog might lose focus or could use encouragement. In a complex behavior, the duration marker is kind of a bridge, asking the dog to continue until the routine is complete. My dog knows some routines and complex behaviors, and bridging her at certain point reinforces that she needs to complete the entire behavior.

Ex: I teach dogs to retrieve a dumbbell using backchaining and varying my bridge (duration) marker. I can build speed in the retrieve by varying the bridge. During the teaching phase, I mark the pickup with a "good", and the dog is encouraged to return quicker so that he can access the terminal mark. (Later, as he becomes proficient, I do not bridge as often, marking only after the entire behavior is finished). However, If he is slow on the way out, I can bridge earlier, and he is encouraged to quicken on the way to the dumbbell. If he goes out and picks up fast but loses interest on the way in, I would bridge more after the pickup and before the point where he might lose focus. If he is still struggling with distraction, I may encourage him by bridging all the way in.

The click or bridge can also be used to switch from one movement to the next in a complex behavior or routine, like teaching a horse when to change leads.

Oh,thank you so much! Now this is clear for me. Good to understand things for the future. But unfortunately I am not yet good enough handler to use such advanced techniques. But I've printed these informations and nailed them on a wall, so I'll not have forgotten them, once I've reached that level.

If your marking and tossing the reward for a sit or down stay the is no problem with the dog moving after you mark it. It did as you asked or you wouldn't have marked and tossed the reward.

Are you moving to far from the dog before it's solid on the sit/down stays?

If the dog is moving BEFORE your marking then it's a good chance you have put to much distance or duration on the exercise.

I do a lot of returning to the dog in order to mark and reward but that has to be very random in order to keep the dog from anticipating and meeting you half way.

Sometimes I walk past the dog and return to heel position before marking and rewarding.

Sometimes I walk back to the dog then immediately return to MY position in front of the dog (vary the distance).

These are ALL proofing exercises to teach the dog NOT to anticipate what your going to do.

When a dog breaks a sit or down it's not being stubborn, disrespectful, onry, etc.

!!!!The dog is confused as to exactly what your want OR it's anticipating because you haven't varied YOUR behavior.!!!!

Be consistent with your randomness! Make sense?