Can a dog have alot of prey drive without having herding instinct?

Yes.......... sighthounds for example.

But I don't believe it works the other way around. Herding instinct is just pronounced prey drive without the actual kill.

You can have prey drive without herding instinct but can't have herding instinct without prey drive.

Anyone feel free to correct me on this one if I am wrong, herding is certainly not an area I know that much about.

actually, i have a dog with super herding instinct and very little prey drive.

they are two completely different aspects.

So much depends on what you are calling herding instinct???? A natural balance on sheep? A dog who can 'read' sheep? Good stock sense? Likes to keep the herd flocked together? Herding instinct is not only natural prey drive. Depends on who you talk to, and what you are calling ínstint'.

Whether or not your dog goes in for the kill can depend a lot on the relationship you have with your dog. A good herding dog would likely have enough prey drive to do that, however, you should be in a relationship with your dog where it respects you as the alpha. I guess a lot can also depend on what you mean by going for the kill? A gsd can easily kill a young sheep/ewe without it actually going in with that intention.

You can have wonderful herding instinct (again depending on what you are referring to) without much prey drive. I have a bitch that has INCREDIBLE natural balance (knows exactly the place she needs to be to keep the sheep to me), can read the sheep so that I hardly ever have to tell her where I want her. However, she really lacks the drive to be a good working dog.

When I look for a dog for herding purposed I look for several things. First a dog with good strong drives. A dog that is what I call biddable, a team player. This is by no means mean a soft dog. It is a dog that is trainable and has a willingness to please the handler.

I want a dog that does not hold a grudge when it is corrected. Perhaps one might call it a hardness to brush off things. (kicked by a mean ram, MEAN ewe protecting her lamb, kicked by a cow etc) . I want a very confident dog that can control large flocks of heavy sheep.

As mentioned before a dog with a good stock ethic. This shows itself in a dog that knows the sheep are its repsonsibility. In tending, it might be how the dog works the flock. Knowing where it must be to keep the sheep within the borders. I think this trait is mostly genetic but can also be trained to a degree. As well, you want a dog with a good work ethic. A dog that knows its jobs and stays with it. A dog who can focus on the job at hand and not be distracted.

Lastly, I want a dog that is put together well. Has nice thick pads, tight feet, nice movement,and agile. A dog that is put together well, works better and works longer! A dog with smooth movment is much less disturbing to the flock as well.

Shelley,

You go girl. That is the exact kind of dog I would love to have the honor of owning. Damn, girl you brought tears to my eyes.

Thanks for shareing that wonderful description of a working dog!

Debbie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks everybody.I have seen Shelly's dogs work and it truly is wonderful to see.It's not all about the dog's though,she is an awesome handler,something I would like to be one day.The reason I asked this is because I saw a dog at a herding instinct test that appeared to have no desire to bring sheep to it's handler at all.It seemed to have intence prey drive and that's it.It had extreme frustration and when allowed to go to work he appeared to only want to grip,no circling what so ever.Now I realize that at times gripping is a frustration thing on a part of a novice dog but this was different.It confused me a bit as I had an old boy that I started on sheep,he had stock sence,and a real desire to keep the sheep in a group and natural balance but not enough of what I thought was prey drive.Maybe I am wrong,maybe it's working drive that he lacked.I believe his age had something to do with it also.Although I have to say with him being so mellow he worked real up close to the sheep without panicking them which was kind of cool to see.Alot of the dog's I see that don't pass instinct tests seem to have no get up and go on anything,nothing seems to stimulate them, so I always figured it was a lack of prey drive.Now I think I am totally wrong.I know it is probably to much of a complex question to sum up in a few words.Thanks for your responces guys!

As I don't know the dog you are talking about it would áppear'to me that some of the problem in the above dog that you describe may have actually been more about the dogs temperament, lack of solid temperament, lack of solid nerve, and lack of confidence.

However, a lot can also depend on the dogs experiences prior to the herding instinct test, the dogs age etc. Dogs who have been taught and told most of thier lives to 'leave'things,not chase, not go in, sometimes feel that they are being set up for something and thus will work like you describe. They may really want to work but feel that they may be punished and thus you have the frustration and cheap shots.

Sheep are not as stupid as we might like to beleive. Most can read a dogs 'power'level in a very short period of time and will act or behave accordingly. If they do not feel the dog will 'make' them do much...they will allow it to work up close. However, I have also seen dogs work close that have lots of power...and in many cases the owner/handler took a lot of it out of the dog. I train my dogs so different than when I trained my first dog. When one only competes with thier dogs in competitions and do not use them practically as a true working dog, you will find that much of their power and ability to take correct grips has been taken out of them. (if it was there in the first place). However, when you use your dogs on your own home turf for day to day work...you see very quickly the NEED for a powerful dog, that will, can and does take control and a grip when needed.

By the way...thanks for your kind comments!

Shelley,

Do you have any favorite books about herding that you would recommend on starting a young dog ?

Thanks,

Debbie

 Quote:

Originally posted by corgipower - Elizabeth Shulman:
actually, i have a dog with super herding instinct and very little prey drive.

they are two completely different aspects.

I disagree, corgipower.

this is from Ellen's website........ " These drives are genetic, can be selectively bred for and are expressions of the prey instinct. Total attraction to the sheep is a specific and focused aspect of the prey instinct. It is an intense, almost obsessive, form of the prey drive, which is expressed by behaviors to possess and control sheep to the exclusion of all other prey objects."

It only makes sense that herding instinct is just another form of prey drive..a specialized form but prey drive just the same.