My 16 month, male Mal has been accustomed to getting bites about waist high, unfortunately. He’s an all around super dog and can literally “fly” when he wants to. Because he has been given all his long bites relatively low, he won’t come up, or “fly” into the bite. He comes in 100 mph and commits wonderfully. My concern is two fold. First and foremost, being a helper myself, I find it much easier to catch a dog who leaves the ground, on the long bite. I’m guessing that most every other helper feels the same. Having a dog that comes in nut high, constantly adjusting to try and take you out…. I fear a jam coming on at some point. Second, it looks a lot nicer to the judge and me for that matter. He’ll come up just fine on the hold and bark, to the point of the helper standing on a platform, making the sleeve about 6-7 feet off the ground, my dog has no problem hitting it at that hieght. Braking back during a hold and bark he’ll come up just fine then too. It seems though, sending him from any distance, he just wont come up. Suggestions?

I have had success with having the dog jump over something like a chair or bench to get the bite.

I think some of what you are taking about is just the dogs style. However, that being said I have also had some success doing just what Vince suggested. Another thing that has work is if you have a helper that is fast enough and has good timing that he can leave his feet and jump up and back so the dog catches him at his highest point.
Also being a trial helper I agree that it is nicer to catch a dog that is in the air coming at you, then coming up under you and you have to keep looking for the dog. But, another thing to keep in mind is when a dog is flying at you coming fast and the helper gets a little shaky and decides to bale out it can also be a dangerous thing, just as bad as being jammed. Just some thoughts........

Good question...Assuming a dog has the drive / genetics... how do those KNPV and world class Schutzhund people teach those flying bites on the long attack / courage test?

I think Vince is on the right track. I know people who have taught the long jump (as in AKC) separate from the bite and then put the long jump obstacles in front of the decoy. (Of course there should be some intermediate steps).

Make sure the jump is well trained before putting it together with the bite, or the dog will just see is as another obstacle to go around.

I don't do this in LE because it's too easy to make a dog miss.

What do you think about putting him on a suit, only introduce him to bite in the amrpit area. Think it's possible to transfer this to the sleeve? My thought is it would be new, no bad habits to fall back on. ???? off base?

My feeling on this is that this is a taught stly as you havc stated tha the dog has benn given his bites low for alot of his training. Being that this dog is committed and really does not have a problem, find a decoy that catches high and start by giving the dog high bites at short distances all the time. It should only be a matter of time that the dog will learn that he has to go high to get the bite. He most likley will never become a flyer which can cause a jam also with some decoys, but he should over time learn to commit himself in this manner. I don't think that you have an exotic problem. Making him jump over an obstacle can help him jump high, but there is no way in knowing that he will bite high without the an obstacle in his way. When doing what I suggested make sure you have a skilled decoy. The dog may get a few bad bites a few times so don't worry to much. Good luck and I hope this will help.

I think Mike has the right idea. I have tried the obstacle technique but as soon as it was removed the dog went back to its normal behavior. And then there's the possibility of injury with an obstacle.
Back up and teach the bite right.

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Alan

McKenzie River Schutzhund

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Originally posted by Alan:
I have tried the obstacle technique but as soon as it was removed the dog went back to its normal behavior. And then there's the possibility of injury with an obstacle.
Back up and teach the bite right.

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If you used the obstacle technique and the dog went right back to his old behavior it's probably because you didn't fade it properly. You don't take it away and expect the dog to keep jumping over something that's not there. You do it a couple of hundred times and then when the dog is habituated, you remove one piece of the jump. Then put it back. Then remove two. etc.

As for injuries, this type of a bite, launching, is fraught with dangers but the question was "How do I train it?" not, "Is it any good?"

And your final sentence, "Back up and teach the bite right." might lead one to believe that there is only one RIGHT way to train this or any other behavior.

That's just not so.

Dogs are creatures of habit and Lou is absolutely right. Fade it, habituate it, and do it hundreds of times. I have found that most of those flyers and full mouth biters are genetically predisposed to those traits.
The question may be "how to" but I think it is important to relate the bad as well as "Is it any good".
There is no One way or "Right Way". Every Dog is different, every Trainer is different.